- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.
But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.
I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.
So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?
It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It’s FOSS, so using it doesn’t give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they’re unaware.
One might claim they’re being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they’re toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don’t have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the “user might donate if they’re unaware” is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there’s no guarantee they’ll keep the caveat (in fact I’d consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I’d say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I’d say “its a bit of a Nazi bar thing”.
And in addition to that: It’s also kind of a big thing that they get an audience. The more people use the projects, the bigger the audience. They’ll get a Discord and people will join because of the project, people will start reading their blog because of the attention via the software… People will maintain and package their software, or use it, or contribute to it… Directly resulting in interactions with the group which develops a project. That’s a direct consequence of the project getting attention. And “promoting” is a way to draw attention.
The more people learn to drive, the bigger the chance they’ll get a private car, the more accidents, the more people will die. Thus: let’s recommend everyone to not learn to drive.
I feel this path is sort of a baby-sitting approach to recommendations. Not only do I have to know if the software if good before recommending it, I also have to research if there’s a chance that whoever I’m recommending it to might find a community somewhere for which they might lack enough critical thinking to judge on by themselves?
How about we recommend good software when it’s good while at the same time recommending good ideals / good thoughts when they are good?
How about we just tell the truth as is? I mean in your analogy… Would you recommend a faulty car with the same words you’d choose for a very nice one? Would you hide that the manufacturer does problematic things? I think the way you phrase it, has indeed some things in common for example with recommending a Tesla car these days. Generally, people don’t keep their mouth shut about who manufactures them. So yeah, I don’t think speaking the truth is babysitting at all… But of course you also don’t hide the fact that Hyperland exists and if it’s any good. I’d advocate for just stating the facts. As an added bonus, everyone can then go ahead and make that desicion themselves. I mean I personally wouldn’t buy a Swasticar. I have less objections using Hyprland. But I always try to give these kind of info out as well, if someone asks me about software. Because I think it’s kind of important if a project is healthy, has a nice community etc. I think the comparison with driving cars falls a bit short, since we don’t recommend people shouldn’t use any desktop. It’s fine to use one. And it’s also fine to drive a car. You should just be aware of the consequences. And in fact I think it’d be beneficial if we were to drive less cars, for several reasons.
But that’s exactly what I mean when I say recommend good software and recommend good thoughts.
Why do you assume I wanna “hide” problematic information? Did I say that? What I’m saying is don’t hide the fact that good things are good. The good car will be a good car, and the manufacturer being problematic will be a problematic manufacturer.
Recommending the good car does not imply that you support the manufacturer, and denouncing the manufacturer does not imply that their cars are bad and not something we should recommend.
What’s the manufacturer of the device you are using right now?
If a notorious criminal created a cure for cancer, I’ll sing praises to his amazing work, asking everyone to use it. But that dos not mean I approve of their crimes. It would be perfectly consistent with my praise of his work to, at the same time, ask for him to to be judged and sentenced accordingly for the crimes he committed…
The world is not black and white. People are not angels just because they have one good thought, nor do they become monsters that poison everything they touch if they have one wrong thought.
Yeah, seems we’re on the same page, then. Because I occasionally get into that situation. People ask me stuff and I’ll tell them, there is software XY or Linux distribution XY which does exactly what you’re looking for, but it’s owned by a company which is known for making problematic business decisions, so wouldn’t recommend using it before giving it a good thought if that’s going to impede with your application… Or I’ll tell them about some software project and simultaneously say, I can’t endorse it due to the political stance or behaviour of the devs/maintainers… Happened a few times to me with niche projects, Android distributions and Fediverse projects. I’ll then not walk around and advertise for them, but instead only give a complete picture of the situation on request.
And I’ll do it in other parts of my life as well… Try to boycott clothes from a particularly bad sweatshop, even if they fit and suit me well… Not buy tasty food if it’s from Nesté or the Coca Cola company… Though those are on a different level of “bad” as this one. Just saying toxic things on the internet isn’t exactly the same as supporting child labor, slavery and stealing poor people’s water supply.
My current device is a Dell laptop I got second hand.
Those are both great points, thanks for explaining.
No worries I’m glad we could discuss it in a way that was helpful!