The presence of private property does not mean China is capitalist, just like the presence of public property does not mean the US Empire is socialist. What matters is which aspect is principle, and the class character of the state. In China, the large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned, and the state is run by the working classes. No mode of production has ever truly been “pure,” and thus treating socialism like some magical, special mode of production is absurd.
Over 90% of Chinese citizens support their system, yes. It isn’t “deception,” and you keep trying to paint China as especially duplicitous and evil, which is borderline chauvanism. In China, capitalists are regularly persecuted, executed, and otherwise kept in control by the socialist state.
I think it’s important to mention that it’s not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who’s read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state.
Yep, agreed! That’s why I said principle aspect, not majority, and referenced the large firms and key industries, ie the commanding heights. Having a state-run bank alone isn’t socialism either, it’s important to recognize all of it, and which direction it’s going. Though, thanks for adding, if it was unclear for you then doubtless it was unclear for others!
That china is a socialist state is not in question.
We’re talking about its economic system, and I believe “state capitalism” is the right description.
That most of its major industries are state controlled and the biggest firms are SOEs doesn’t change this.
As a side note: There is still a lot of private capital slushing around in China, and many USD-millionaires. There’s still significant inequality. They still have work to do, but that doesn’t detract from what they have achieved.
I believe “state capitalism” is the right description.
If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it “State socialist” as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it’s qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence “socialist market economy” is the right description like other posters mentioned
As a funny counter-example: I wouldn’t call Norway a socialist state, but it does have a similar interest in many industries, commanding heights in some. It could also be described as practicing a form of state capitalism (more of a carve out in the bigger capitalist system). The difference in China is the ideology and scale and dominance of it… 60% or so of the entire economy, if I remember right. China chose to call itself a “socialist market economy” back in 1992. That’s fine, and it’s definitely nicer to say than “state capitalism with chinese socialist characteristics”. It’s a political ideological label that they own, and can even change and interpret as they see fit.
Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms.
Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms.
Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. “State capitalism” is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states
“state capitalism” alone is a bit imprecise, and open to interpretation (as this whole thread demonstrates). It’s probably why additional qualifiers are typically used, and definitions often provided. Especially when labels like socialist market economy change over time.
Once again: it’s fine - times change & ideologies evolve.
The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates.
The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M’ circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector.
It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes.
Is the “socialist state” withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don’t see how they can even be considered Marxist.
The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in “special economic zones”. Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified.
The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it’s really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe “party capitalist” is more accurate. I’m not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists “authoritarian” is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn’t exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games.
“Authoritarian” can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, “it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me,” trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It’s sectarian idealism.
It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes.
The state exists to establish and maintain supremacy of one class over the others, and in China that class is the proletariat. The communist party is large, indeed, but it isn’t “operating with bourgeois principles,” whatever that means. There is no obfuscation of class struggle.
Is the “socialist state” withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don’t see how they can even be considered Marxist.
There are a few key errors here.
The state as a state that cannot but whither away already exists, it cannot complete that process without the death of imperialism and the global transition to communism.
China is very internationalist, just not millitantly so. No country has done more to undermine the economic basis of imperialism in the 21st century than China.
The revolution did not fail.
China upholds Mao and Deng, but in fact sees Xi Jinping Thought as the same category as Mao Zedong Thought while keeping Deng Xiapoing Theory at the level of theory, not thought. It’s Xi Jinping Thought that is seen as the genuine advancement.
The CPC does not reject class struggle. The CPC rejects the Gang of Four’s vulgarization of class struggle over all else.
The fact that there are five critical errors in this paragraph alone speaks volumes.
The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in “special economic zones”. Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified.
There is no “bureaucratic class.” Administration is fully in line with proletarian responsibilities. The rest of your comment is indicative of early socialism, which is a long and drawn out process, not of capitalism.
The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it’s really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe “party capitalist” is more accurate. I’m not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists “authoritarian” is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn’t exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games.
The party, to the contrary, uses the state to socialize the economy and maintain dominance over the capitalists that do exist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the state is run by the proletariat. For someone that seems to not be too invested in slandering China, you’ve repeated common misinformation about it without backing yourself up, and then wound yourself up in the epistemological word games you accuse others of.
“Authoritarian” can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, “it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me,” trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It’s sectarian idealism.
“Authoritarianism” is simply the use of state power, and the state must be understood by its class character. The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” is because this is juxtaposed not by a lack of authority, but by *capitalist authoritarianism." The degree of state power employed is not a decision of individuals, but of the state reacting to material conditions it finds itself in. Modern Germany has just as much potential to end up like Nazi Germany, but because they aren’t in the same degree of crisis they don’t need to employ as drastic measures to solidify bourgeois rule.
Overall, you’ve played more word games than anyone else here, repeated misinformation from anti-communists and cold warriors, then tried to shut down the points of others without meaningfully backing up your own.
Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don’t consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I’m not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique.
Also
The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism”
I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with.
A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms.
I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn’t have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat.
However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part.
I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I’m sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I’m an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you’d choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can’t directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries.
I’ll move past the first couple paragraphs, which I think you’ll be okay with considering the opener was your background and the second you taking issue with me stating the standard Marxist position as in contradiction with yours, implicitly categorizing you as non-Marxist in that analysis. I do maintain that you are removing yourself from Marxism with that analysis, but I’ll address what you brought up here.
A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms.
Coexistance is not what is going on in China. The bourgeoisie are in a drawn out process of eradication, as the proletarian state gradually collectivizes property. They cannot accelerate this as they are still thoroughly coupled with global capitalism, the transition between capitalism to communism is itself global and thus China plays a revolutionary role in undermining imperialism, the primary contradiction.
I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn’t have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining.
The CPC is not sustaining the bourgeois class, but is restrained by the global transition. The party itself is not bourgeois. Doubtless there are liberals in China, of course there are, but the party is proletarian in nature.
The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat.
The CPC is not trying to abolish itself, nor should they. China is meaningfully opposing imperialism, and has freed much of the global south from the trappings of underdevelopment. The CPC is not “buying time for socialism,” China is already socialist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the proletariat is in charge of the state. What remains between now and communism is the long, drawn out transition. Social democracies have private ownership as principle, and capitalists in charge of the state.
However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part.
I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I’m sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I’m an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you’d choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can’t directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries.
I’m capable of critique of the CPC, sure. At the same time, I find it far less important than taking a pro-socialist stance that upholds existing socialism. I can recognize your desire to establish socialism while also vehemontly disagreeing with your position, see Gramsci on Bordiga earlier. I think Nia Frome’s article Long, Queer Revolution may be helpful for you. Here’s an excerpt:
What do we gain from viewing the revolution as a long, queer process? Perhaps the most salutary effect is that it lets us stop arguing about whether any given state “is” or “is not” socialist. “Socialism” names a global transition; a given state may take a leading role in this transition for a time, but we should expect any state, even one in the lead, to be advancing along some fronts while it regresses or stagnates on others (wouldn’t it be entirely too stagist to imagine otherwise?). The game of tallying up progressive vs. regressive features in order to cleanly demarcate socialist countries from capitalist ones can’t ever be brought to a satisfying close, precisely because socialism is just capitalism’s turning into something else, a process that is spread out over the human race in a constantly shifting (combined and uneven) mosaic. It’s unreasonable to think in terms of pure anything, to expect any given fight or institutional innovation to be the fight or the innovation that, if everyone just got on board with it, would finally usher in communism. Instead, we should think in terms of roles — is x playing a progressive role in situation y? Trying to aggregate the answers to this question to arrive at an overall “socialism” score is just as misguided as any other quantity purporting to capture quality.
Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies’ use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it’s incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx.
The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they’ve gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can’t prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist “vanguard” from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to “ridicule”.
Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded.
I think you’re getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis.
The goal of socialism is not equalitarianism, but to improve the lives of the working classes and work towards collectivizing all production and distribution to satisfy the needs of all. Further, state capitalism is a better descriptor for the US Empire, Singapore, ROK, etc, not for a socialist market economy like China.
Markets are the coordination mechanism, while the ownership structure is clearly capitalist in nature, because a huge amount of capital in China is privately owned. And yes, I am aware many prefer to call their brand of state capitalism “socialist market economy” instead.
That the state owns significant amounts (and the majority in key sectors) is a good thing.
Not a goal? Economic equality does seem to be a goal of China’s socialism… Common prosperity, with a reduction of extreme inequality as one of the key tenets.
I did. The fact that private capital exists in China does not make it capitalist. Capitalism, as a mode of production, refers to a broad system, not private ownership in general. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, you cannot slice out private ownership as a static, disconnected thing and call it capitalism, it must be judged within the context of its existence. It isn’t just that the state owns a significant amount, but that the state owns the commanding heights of industry, the large firms and key industries, finance sector, and more, with the working class in control of said state.
State capitalism refers to capitalist states, run by capitalists with private ownership as the principle aspect, but with large degrees of state control. Nazi Germany is another good example of state capitalism, a strong bourgeois state is not the same as a socialist market economy.
Marx railed against equalitarians. Equality isn’t the goal, but reducing disparity while focusing on improving the lives of the working classes. If that means billionaires existing as a tactical contradiction, then this isn’t a mark against socialism, but instead a contradiction that requires solving down the line. As China remains integrated into the world market, billionaires do exist, but they hold no political power.
Capitalism can and does exist outside of capitalist states (China being an example of this)…this is obviously a matter of differing definitions. That’s OK, but I’d suggest some links to formal definitions. Perhaps there’s a wiki somewhere?
edit: I think nazi germany’s economy fits the term command capitalism better than state capitalism.
You’re fundamentally treating capitalism differently from socialism, which is your error. Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff, just like capitalism isn’t when private property. As for definitions, here’s Prolewiki on State Capitalism and on Socialist Market Economy.
The presence of private property does not mean China is capitalist, just like the presence of public property does not mean the US Empire is socialist. What matters is which aspect is principle, and the class character of the state. In China, the large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned, and the state is run by the working classes. No mode of production has ever truly been “pure,” and thus treating socialism like some magical, special mode of production is absurd.
Over 90% of Chinese citizens support their system, yes. It isn’t “deception,” and you keep trying to paint China as especially duplicitous and evil, which is borderline chauvanism. In China, capitalists are regularly persecuted, executed, and otherwise kept in control by the socialist state.
I think it’s important to mention that it’s not just the proportion of state owned industries in China. The finance sector is state controlled, which in a capitalist society is how the highest level decisions are made. Anyone who’s read Imperialism will recognize China as a socialist state.
Yep, agreed! That’s why I said principle aspect, not majority, and referenced the large firms and key industries, ie the commanding heights. Having a state-run bank alone isn’t socialism either, it’s important to recognize all of it, and which direction it’s going. Though, thanks for adding, if it was unclear for you then doubtless it was unclear for others!
That china is a socialist state is not in question.
We’re talking about its economic system, and I believe “state capitalism” is the right description.
That most of its major industries are state controlled and the biggest firms are SOEs doesn’t change this.
As a side note: There is still a lot of private capital slushing around in China, and many USD-millionaires. There’s still significant inequality. They still have work to do, but that doesn’t detract from what they have achieved.
If you want to focus on the pure mechanic of how surplus value is extracted in SOEs and try to make the argument that the CPC forms a nomenclatura that appropriates it then it would be still fairer to call it “State socialist” as the surplus value is distributed amongs the working class benefiting them significantly materially unlike in capitalist countries. Since it’s qualitatively a different state than the UDSSR is useful to also look at the distinguishing aspect, namely the presence of the market. Hence “socialist market economy” is the right description like other posters mentioned
As a funny counter-example: I wouldn’t call Norway a socialist state, but it does have a similar interest in many industries, commanding heights in some. It could also be described as practicing a form of state capitalism (more of a carve out in the bigger capitalist system). The difference in China is the ideology and scale and dominance of it… 60% or so of the entire economy, if I remember right. China chose to call itself a “socialist market economy” back in 1992. That’s fine, and it’s definitely nicer to say than “state capitalism with chinese socialist characteristics”. It’s a political ideological label that they own, and can even change and interpret as they see fit.
Economists will continue to prefer analytical terms.
Yes western liberal economists prefer calling it state capitalist as the funding for their research and prestige depends on it. “State capitalism” is also political ideological label that serves capitalist interests as it obfuscates the nature of socialist states
“state capitalism” alone is a bit imprecise, and open to interpretation (as this whole thread demonstrates). It’s probably why additional qualifiers are typically used, and definitions often provided. Especially when labels like socialist market economy change over time.
Once again: it’s fine - times change & ideologies evolve.
The term “state capitalism” confounds more than it illuminates.
The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M’ circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector.
It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes.
Is the “socialist state” withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don’t see how they can even be considered Marxist.
The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in “special economic zones”. Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified.
The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it’s really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe “party capitalist” is more accurate. I’m not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists “authoritarian” is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn’t exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games.
“Authoritarian” can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, “it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me,” trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It’s sectarian idealism.
The state exists to establish and maintain supremacy of one class over the others, and in China that class is the proletariat. The communist party is large, indeed, but it isn’t “operating with bourgeois principles,” whatever that means. There is no obfuscation of class struggle.
There are a few key errors here.
The state as a state that cannot but whither away already exists, it cannot complete that process without the death of imperialism and the global transition to communism.
China is very internationalist, just not millitantly so. No country has done more to undermine the economic basis of imperialism in the 21st century than China.
The revolution did not fail.
China upholds Mao and Deng, but in fact sees Xi Jinping Thought as the same category as Mao Zedong Thought while keeping Deng Xiapoing Theory at the level of theory, not thought. It’s Xi Jinping Thought that is seen as the genuine advancement.
The CPC does not reject class struggle. The CPC rejects the Gang of Four’s vulgarization of class struggle over all else.
The fact that there are five critical errors in this paragraph alone speaks volumes.
There is no “bureaucratic class.” Administration is fully in line with proletarian responsibilities. The rest of your comment is indicative of early socialism, which is a long and drawn out process, not of capitalism.
The party, to the contrary, uses the state to socialize the economy and maintain dominance over the capitalists that do exist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the state is run by the proletariat. For someone that seems to not be too invested in slandering China, you’ve repeated common misinformation about it without backing yourself up, and then wound yourself up in the epistemological word games you accuse others of.
“Authoritarianism” is simply the use of state power, and the state must be understood by its class character. The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism” is because this is juxtaposed not by a lack of authority, but by *capitalist authoritarianism." The degree of state power employed is not a decision of individuals, but of the state reacting to material conditions it finds itself in. Modern Germany has just as much potential to end up like Nazi Germany, but because they aren’t in the same degree of crisis they don’t need to employ as drastic measures to solidify bourgeois rule.
Overall, you’ve played more word games than anyone else here, repeated misinformation from anti-communists and cold warriors, then tried to shut down the points of others without meaningfully backing up your own.
Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don’t consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I’m not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique.
Also
I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with.
A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms.
I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn’t have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat.
However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part.
I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I’m sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I’m an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you’d choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can’t directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries.
I’ll move past the first couple paragraphs, which I think you’ll be okay with considering the opener was your background and the second you taking issue with me stating the standard Marxist position as in contradiction with yours, implicitly categorizing you as non-Marxist in that analysis. I do maintain that you are removing yourself from Marxism with that analysis, but I’ll address what you brought up here.
Coexistance is not what is going on in China. The bourgeoisie are in a drawn out process of eradication, as the proletarian state gradually collectivizes property. They cannot accelerate this as they are still thoroughly coupled with global capitalism, the transition between capitalism to communism is itself global and thus China plays a revolutionary role in undermining imperialism, the primary contradiction.
The CPC is not sustaining the bourgeois class, but is restrained by the global transition. The party itself is not bourgeois. Doubtless there are liberals in China, of course there are, but the party is proletarian in nature.
The CPC is not trying to abolish itself, nor should they. China is meaningfully opposing imperialism, and has freed much of the global south from the trappings of underdevelopment. The CPC is not “buying time for socialism,” China is already socialist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the proletariat is in charge of the state. What remains between now and communism is the long, drawn out transition. Social democracies have private ownership as principle, and capitalists in charge of the state.
I recommend Gramsci’s On Comrade Bordiga’s Sterile and Negative “Left” Criticism since you mentioned Bordiga earlier.
I’m capable of critique of the CPC, sure. At the same time, I find it far less important than taking a pro-socialist stance that upholds existing socialism. I can recognize your desire to establish socialism while also vehemontly disagreeing with your position, see Gramsci on Bordiga earlier. I think Nia Frome’s article Long, Queer Revolution may be helpful for you. Here’s an excerpt:
Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies’ use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it’s incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx.
The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they’ve gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can’t prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist “vanguard” from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to “ridicule”.
Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded.
Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games.
I think you’re getting hung up on an artificial separation of politics and economics, you should look up a critique of this or investigate why political economy is a useful framework for analysis.
Thanks. I find it quite fascinating, despite the open hostility of some here.
The goal of socialism is not equalitarianism, but to improve the lives of the working classes and work towards collectivizing all production and distribution to satisfy the needs of all. Further, state capitalism is a better descriptor for the US Empire, Singapore, ROK, etc, not for a socialist market economy like China.
You might have to provide your definitions…
Markets are the coordination mechanism, while the ownership structure is clearly capitalist in nature, because a huge amount of capital in China is privately owned. And yes, I am aware many prefer to call their brand of state capitalism “socialist market economy” instead.
That the state owns significant amounts (and the majority in key sectors) is a good thing.
Not a goal? Economic equality does seem to be a goal of China’s socialism… Common prosperity, with a reduction of extreme inequality as one of the key tenets.
I did. The fact that private capital exists in China does not make it capitalist. Capitalism, as a mode of production, refers to a broad system, not private ownership in general. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, you cannot slice out private ownership as a static, disconnected thing and call it capitalism, it must be judged within the context of its existence. It isn’t just that the state owns a significant amount, but that the state owns the commanding heights of industry, the large firms and key industries, finance sector, and more, with the working class in control of said state.
State capitalism refers to capitalist states, run by capitalists with private ownership as the principle aspect, but with large degrees of state control. Nazi Germany is another good example of state capitalism, a strong bourgeois state is not the same as a socialist market economy.
Marx railed against equalitarians. Equality isn’t the goal, but reducing disparity while focusing on improving the lives of the working classes. If that means billionaires existing as a tactical contradiction, then this isn’t a mark against socialism, but instead a contradiction that requires solving down the line. As China remains integrated into the world market, billionaires do exist, but they hold no political power.
Capitalism can and does exist outside of capitalist states (China being an example of this)…this is obviously a matter of differing definitions. That’s OK, but I’d suggest some links to formal definitions. Perhaps there’s a wiki somewhere?
edit: I think nazi germany’s economy fits the term command capitalism better than state capitalism.
You’re fundamentally treating capitalism differently from socialism, which is your error. Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff, just like capitalism isn’t when private property. As for definitions, here’s Prolewiki on State Capitalism and on Socialist Market Economy.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/state-capitalism is the traditional definition, which I think fits pretty well.