partial_accumen

or my favorite, steel-cut oats.

If we’re talking about cheap meals steel-cut oats have almost excluded themselves these days. I used to be able to buy organic SCO in bulk for about $1.45/lbs. These days I can’t find any SCO for less than $3.50/lbs and that conventional, not organic.

Where are you getting cheap SCO these days?

The left begins at socialism.

If you’re talking about the political spectrum I would think the extreme far left would begin at anarchism and eventually graduate to socialism as you move farther right.

The scary part of this one is that previously, we had administrations that, while still being right-of-center (yes ML, I know), had at least enough sense to prop things up well enough to recover.

I’ll admit I haven’t cataloged all financial crises in American history, but I can’t think of any right-of-center administrations that have cleaned up a things for a recovery. Perhaps only exception might be the Oil Crisis under Carter, and the recovery under Reagan. Great depression, Black Monday, Great Recession, COVID recession, all happened under right-of-center Presidents and recovered under left-of-center Presidents.

I started another point-by-point rebuttable about my individual disagreements with your arguments, but I think we’re just too far away from one another for more meaningful discussion on this. Thank you for your discussion up to this point though.

Edit: I should have lead with this, but I’ll add it now after-the-fact. I really appreciate you taking the time to response and share your views and data. Even though I don’t necessarily agree with it. I want to thank you for talking.

Capitalists in the US, facing internal market saturation and steadily falling rates of profit, have had to expand outward, leveraging a strong overseas military to keep the global south under their thumb.

My point is that capitalism isn’t the only system susceptible to this. All governments in human history have fallen to a version of this if they rise to any substantial size.

The empire of Japan did the same thing for the same reason causing their start of WWII in the late 1930s. In China the Qing Dynasty collapsed in the 1910s under the weight of its expansion. Rome did the same with collapse in 98AD to 117AD. The Aztec empire fell because of contact with European explorers, but the Aztec society was certainly based upon strict social hierarchies mirroring much of Europe with an aristocracy on one side and serfdom on the other.

It isn’t about “discovering” new systems. History is not progressed by people randomly discovering new ideas, but is a gradual material process, and the ideas that rise and fall are secondary to that and support that process. Liberalism arose because of capitalism’s rise and need for ideological justification.

I disagree. We haven’t found a stable system yet, so more exploration, discovery, evolution (whichever euphemism you want to insert here) is needed to arrive at something stable for humanity. The alternative is we just accept we get a few generations or tens of generations before society falls and we rinse and repeat.

As for socialism, the easiest answer is the PRC.

That… was not was I was expecting as your exemplar of socialism.

This century is going to be marked by China’s undisputed rise. As they continue to develop, market mechanics will continue to be phased out

I’m not so sure about that. First, China has a lot going for it to reach what you’re describing. I don’t dispute that. However, there’s been a shortcoming I’ve observed of China’s path to growth over the last 50 years that I don’t see called out. They’ve reach market mature and economic success far faster than a nation like the USA given the same amount of time. They have been, and still are, on a speedrun of national growth. However, this means they’ve had multiple generations robbed of “the good times” during growth were the growth slower.

Compared against the rise of the middle class in the USA post-WWII we’ve had 3 or 4 generations gain wealth, education, health care and raise families of their own with good paying jobs and readily available resources. In the USA we have grandparents or even great-grandparents that can tell us about the national poverty of living through the Great Depression, and how that shaped their choices (and those of their line). In China, its many times, the parents that lived through that subsistence poverty and their (now middle aged adult) children are the first generation to experience a middle class lifestyle and resources. Two to three generations of generational wealth building simply didn’t occur in China because they’re moving and developing so fast. The problem with this is, the boom times of manufacturing wealth have already started to decline in 大陆. Commodity manufacturing is already shifting out of China to other nations in the global south. Vietnam, Cambodia, India, and others are getting new manufacturing work that was previously going to China.

China has some giant problems looming in the next 50 year. Its population decline (as a result of state-enforced controls of birth) overcorrected and set up China to possibly be worse off that South Korea or even Japan in the decades ahead. source

China is a large net importer of both energy and food. All of these things together give me doubts China will be a long term stable society.

Other countries, like Cuba, manage to maintain higher quality of life metrics despite being under intense embargo than peer countries.

Cuba has done decently given its circumstances, but its historically another authoritarian regime. Further, much of Cuba’s progress might be attributable to artificial support from the Soviet Union to maintain its ally so close to its largest opponent.

The USSR had, in its time, the most rapid improvements in economic growth and quality of life in history.

…for those allowed to live.

None of these countries have been perfect utopias, or anything,

Dismissing Stalin’s purges and the Holodomor against Ukraine, much less the brutal repression of culture in Eastern Europe is doing a disservice to your argument of not being “perfect utopias”. The Soviet Union was as much an empire as the USA was in its expansion into other nations and suppression the local populace for exploitation.

but all have surpassed the inherent unsustainability of capitalism.

The Soviet Union was both born decades to centuries after other modern capitalist nations, and collapsed before them doesn’t really lend credence to your statement here about surpassing unsustainability.

To circle back to my main point. I’m not saying the USA has this figured out. I could write pages on what we’re doing wrong and how its leading to our decline. I’m saying nobody in the world in recorded human history has figured out how to have a sustainable system of governance. All systems are exploiting another to sustain themselves, and when that exploited group is exhausted a cycle of exploitation repeats or the nation collapses.

If you live long enough, you’ve been through a number of bubbles. For me thats:

• Black Monday (1987)
• Dot com bubble (2000) which also bled into 9/11 economics impacts
• Great Recession (2008)
• COVID (2020)

The next bubble will just be another. Economy will slow, value of most assets will drop. Jobs will be lost, homes foreclosed on…and then the recovery will begin again. We’ll look in the mirror shocked we survived it then in a few years we’ll completely forget about it and be terrified of the next bubble.

So, prepare by living within you means, take care of yourself and your loved ones, and just be ready to weather the next storm. We’ll get through that one too.

Imperialism, however, is self-defeating, and the rate of profit is lowering while there aren’t really new markets to plunder anymore. This causes crisis.

Potentially yes, but empires can last for hundreds or thousands of years. Democracy is relatively young by comparison, and we’re already seeing large cracks in it in the USA, one of the older democracies.

The point being: humanity hasn’t yet found a long term stable form of government.

It’s not particularly outlandish to orient the economy around collectivized production and distribution based on need, rather than profit. Socialist countries already exist, and achieve good results compared to peer countries. They require working class organization, which is a difficult but possible process.

I’m interested in your perspective on this. Which socialist country are you using as an example of what you describe above?

If you know not only what a torque wrench is, but how to use it properly you will likely have no trouble changing brake pads.

The feeling I get is that auto work goes much much deeper though, and I am interested in resources that offer that knowledge.

Full engine rebuilds, or even troubleshooting intermittent CANbus issues, sure. But basic maintenance like brake pads or changing out a failed alternator just require basic hand tools and some minor knowledge you can get from youtube.

Replacing brake pads (not shoes for drum brakes) is a fairly straight forward activity and possibly one of the best (besides perhaps changing engine oil) to perform yourself. Youtube is a great place to start. You can likely even find a full video of pad replacement for your exact model of car.

What is your current knowledge with using basic hand tools such as screwdrivers, hammers, and wrenches (for hex head fasteners)? Do you know how to replace a flat tire? There’s lots of overlap with that procedure and changing brake pads.

Obligatory West Wing Gall-Peters Projection link

I don’t need long distance correction, but do need reading glasses distance correction. I got bifocals with no correction on top and my reading prescription on the bottom. When I was choosing types of bifocals, I was given a non-perscription demo progressives to try and hated them. I was then informed by the optometrist that there are a whole bunch of different lens styles to choose from besides progressives for bifocals. I chose “Segmented Ds” which look like this:

These do exactly what I want. If I’m in a meeting and have my laptop or notepad (reading distance) close to me, and at the other end of the room a whiteboard or projection screen, I pop out my bifocals and they work perfectly. I can see both the distance (no prescription for me) and the close reading distance without having to lift my glasses off my face each time. I do not give a shit if someone sees that they are bifocals. I’m using them to help me be the best version of myself, not make a damn fashion statement. I have not one time had anyone say anything negative about them, and indeed had a few people ask how to order the same thing for themselves. If I’m doing pure close work, I don’t use the bifocals and just use regular full field reading glasses.

Have you seen prices drop since companies have laid off all the human help? If human interaction is such a botique concession how did business manage until now and where did their savings go?

A portion to expensive human salaries. Another portion so naked profit taking on the part of these businesses.

To the salaries angle, look at nations which still have massively large populations with low labor costs. You’ll see that work is done by dozens or hundreds of low paid humans instead of automation. There is a tipping point where it becomes cheaper to invest in automation rather than paying a human. In places like Europe, USA, and Japan we’re way past that tipping point and automation (whether thats robots, computer automation, or AI) becomes the significantly cheaper option to getting something done/manufactured. China is quickly joining our ranks too. While they still have a large population, the cost of labor in China is reaching middle class levels and we’re starting to see the same thing there were automation is replacing human workers.

Why are prices staying the same (if we’re lucky) or still rising, services are staying the same (if we’re lucky) or getting worse,

Because in our economic system a small amount of inflation is necessary. A deflationary status in our economy would actually be devastating. However, when the economy overheats we get significant inflation.

companies are taking all these cost-saving measures like sweeping layoffs, and yet the biggest companies are generally posting record profits?

I don’t disagree with this.

I understand you’re probably playing devil’s advocate but devils aren’t entitled to an attorney.

I am, but if people are asking these question non-rhetorically, then they actually want to know why these things happen. I’m willing to provide the understanding I’m aware of, most of which isn’t obvious without prior study. Understanding why the current state exists is the starting point for affecting change, if they want change.

Neither of us can control them.

Why do we need to? Those are the responsibility of those residents.

As for your example of the washing machines, I’ve got news for you and it’s not good - they’re both shit, the above cited example isn’t an example of the washing machines purchased by our Grandparents which were built like brick shithouses. The unit costing $1000 more isn’t on par with the models and designs of yesteryear, not nearly.

Citation needed. How are they not good repairable washers?

Add to this the shrinking pool of home appliances which are manufactured without tied-in computerization, another factor which will shorten their service life considerably (replacement chips will be in short supply once the model is discontinued, forcing owners to source a small pool of qualified repairmen who in turn will be unable to source parts or be forced to cannibalize other broken units).

The Speedqueen has none of those things so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up as a rebuttal to my Speedqueen example.

I seriously can’t believe that your example of high quality appliance is Speed Queen sold at Best Buy, is it the one that you bought, or could you really not think of a better one on the spot?

This is a really odd question you’re asking because how you asked it destroys your own argument. “or could you really not think of a better one on the spot?” suggests you know of a good washer equal to the units of the past, but your argument above is that better washers don’t exist. So which is your argument, that there are the good washers like those in the past that I simply haven’t cited, or that no better washers exist and they are all enshitified?

It’s up to me?

Your actions are up to you, yes. Whether you choose to interact or not in your water utilities or regulation boards is up to you.

I am not in control of every single city or county especially in the states. More than 60% of the states do not even have basic reading skills. Now you just being silly.

Getting involved and taking action locally is silly? I have no idea what your literacy comment has to do with anything we’re talking about.

Have a good one.

Thanks, you too. If you’d like to join me at my co-op annual water meeting, its in July. Hit me up and we’ll go together. If you were a member, you could even run for the board yourself and directly affect water policy in the county. You won’t be able to vote for board members because you’re not a member of the co-op like I am, but you can see how it works and where we have a voice.

This. The only example where I pick a robot over a human is self checkout… and that’s cuz it’s faster due to there only be 1 queue for several checkouts. Not because it saves me money.

You choose to go to a store that has outsourced human labor to machines. Even if you only occasionally use the self-checkout yourself, many other shoppers use the self-checkout. The prices you’re paying for your purchases are lower across the board because they don’t have to pay for as many cashiers.

Are there no stores (for the particular goods you’re buying in this example) that have zero self-checkout? If there are others that employee humans exclusively to check out, then your philosophy should have you shopping only at those and not at stores that have replaced humans with automation. I should warn you, those stores are probably more expensive to shop at.

Inversely; How comfortable would you be in a society where you couldn’t access another human if you couldn’t afford one? Because that’s where prioritizing profit over people is going to lead us.

I’d argue we’re already there in many aspects of our society.

Once again, I agreement with you on this.

The fucking normal amount.

The “normal amount” keeps going up especially with the cost of human labor. So the “normal amount” would actually be a “large increased amount” for the same service with no additional benefits.

Some of it is literally garbage straight out of the box. Despite this, prices have not only not decreased, but normalized at best. Even worse, it’s become difficult to source products which aren’t worthless pieces of shit which cannot be repaired, at least not without considerable research - some of it also cannot be repaired without cannibalizing copies of the same device because no replacement parts have been manufactured.

The good ones can still be had, but they are massively more expensive, so people don’t buy them. Lets take washing machines. This is generally the same design, quality, and longevity out grandparents bought 40 years ago. This is a basic unit without any fancy features:

Here’s the modern enshitified basic unit like the kind you’re referring to that won’t last:

People ‘vote with their wallets’ inasmuch as people on a raft in the ocean vote for beef instead of fish for supper. There is none available, of course they’re going to eat the fucking fish.

Speedqueen exists! What brand of washer do you own? Do you walk the walk and did you spend over $1000+ more for a unit that does the exact same job, but is repairable will last 20 or 30 years or did you buy the cheap one?

As we know, people are stupid and they won’t manage their city/ county whatever’s utility management.

Well thats up to you. I interact with my water co-op yearly at our annual meetings of operations and budgets. This is how I have all this info on Data Center water usage. We have two DCs being built in our co-op coverage territory as we speak. One is a regional colo provider “closed loop” system and uses only marginally more water than an office building of cube farms. The other is an AWS datacenter that is going “open loop” and wants the most water at the worst time (hottest time) of the year. We’re putting the the screws to them and charging them out the yang for it. Its going to pay for additional water infrastructure elsewhere to serve more of the co-op customers and allow us to build an expensive pipeline from one end of the service area to the other.

So I guess it would be more beneficial to keep that in mind and not do the AI crap or are people going to magically become smart?

Make sure you don’t use crypto either then. Its been a larger offender of electricity and water waste than AI has yet.