Not an ad-hominem when it’s directly pertinent to the debate and an example of your implicit bias. If you take not understanding a word or filtering it through your own bias that be stupidity then that’s on you.

What should the Soviets have done instead?

Again, the conversation won’t go anywhere because no matter what I say, you’ll say it couldn’t be done.

That there was literally no possibility of making concessions to the Allies or leveraging their resources in a more indirect way. No way to manage your political footing that didn’t require reliance on Nazis or giving them an open flank in Eastern Europe. No German aggression that could be deflected and spun to international support. They definitely needed to make a photo-op of signing documents next to Nazis and of Soviet troops shaking hands with Germans. They needed to immediately start the annexation and sovietization of territories fresh off their liberation from inevitable German capture. No other way, definitely needed to happen like that.

Talking to you is a clinic in historical determinism.

1940 is the date Goebbels reported

All of these were verified by the Red Cross and there are stacks of documents giving evidence and testimony to the contrary. But yes, I suppose if you throw out everything you don’t like then any argument will get flimsy. Certainly we don’t get “genuine analysis” as you put it.

Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition.

The NKVD was a police force, they were under no compulsion to use military issue weapons. There are other documented instances of them using foreign weapons, it’s not out of the ordinary.

This whole weapon discussion is circumstantial evidence at best, there are plenty of ways it could have happened. And of course Goebbels was eager to report it, it’s very well documented in his own records that he was excited about the find and the bad PR it would give the Soviets. The fact that you’re dismissing the general consensus that the international community has come to after decades of investigation just to maintain your own narrative is pretty disappointing.

America rightly draws criticism for their strong arm enforcement of “democratic values” through occupation, but you see no parallel to the USSR enforcing “Soviet values” through the same occupation strategy. You’ve got some massive blinders on.

Profit in English has a usage with the definition I gave. You said yourself they were doing it to their own advantage. They benefited from it, there was some profit to them in the arrangement (unless they like helping Nazi’s out of the kindness of their heart). It’s not throwing anyone under the bus to say I can’t have a conversation if you lack a grasp on the meaning of words in their context.

Would have been great if they traded with them, but it would have also been beneficial to not sign the non-aggression pact and trade agreements, painting yourself as not aligning with their interests while also preaching a revolutionary gospel. You’re stacking the deck against yourself. But again, we’re talking in circles and you refuse to concede literally any ounce of fault or poor political maneuvering, not much to be said.

German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!

Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it’s internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.

So let’s put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There’s no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?

The Soviets didn’t have a profit-driven economy, what are you talking about?

Profit: to derive benefit, to be of service or advantage, a valuable return. Are you ESL or do you just have a conditioned response from all the propoganda you gobble up?

Brother in Christ if you can’t even admit giving Nazis oil, iron, rare earth minerals and other war necessities is bad then there’s no discussion to be had here. And you keep pointing it back to the West as if I care or that’s even relevant to the USSR’s actions. Dozens of countries can equivocate and justify their ethically grey actions surrounding WWII, why do the Soviets deserve special treatment in your mind?

The world is a massive place, diplomacy has a million facets, there are always options and trade offs. If you can’t find a single flaw in the USSR’s actions then I pity you. You’ve lost sight of your purported support of class struggle and solidary in favor of waving around Cold War flags.

Per our other conversation, the Soviets were trading for German finished goods. Why would you not expect to find German goods here??

And again, the Soviets themselves admitted to it. Why are you even discussing forgeries?

they continued to profit off the Nazis throughout the war

As did the Soviets, what are we even talking about here?? You just respond to each criticism with “they needed to do it and what about the US”, ignoring the multitude of other actions they could have taken if their priorities matched your claims.

Allies would not trade them

Which they did once they had Soviet support. They almost certainly would have received the same support if they joined them in 1939.

It was official USSR foreign policy that the communist revolution should spread to workers of the world in all countries. Regardless of the detriments or merits of that, you can’t ignore it when examining their foreign relations. Of course they got a different treatment…

The goods they got from the Nazis as a trade contributed towards the defeat of the Nazis.

They absolutely did not! One of the main factors that broke down the USSR-German relationship was a refusal to reciprocate military technology and materials.

The Poles asked for their troops back when they were forming a USSR-based army and were told that thousands had mysteriously escaped. Then when asked for an official investigation, the Soviets broke ties with the Polish government in exile and made their own.

The Soviets themselves later admitted it was the NKVD. Are you defending the USSR from its own slander?

Ah the classic .ml responses: the USSR really wanted to do something but was forced to do the opposite because of those nasty capitalist states and also we’ll just reject all sources we don’t agree with. It’s as iconic as the inverse US claims but you never fail to see the irony.

If you don’t want to believe US reports, just look at Germans attacking US ships well before their entry into the war. It’s not some secret conspiracy that the Allies were benefitting more from the US’s position than the Axis by orders of magnitude.

They saw the Nazis as such a great threat that they needed to give them the materials to fuel Panzers and make the ammunition that killed Allied soldiers? What? If they truly wanted the Nazis gone first and foremost they would not have done that. It doesn’t hold up to any logic.

That’s true, but what about that requires this?

1. Yes, the West wanted the Nazis and communists to fight and the Soviets wanted the Nazis to fight the West. Both sides acted accordingly. Why is this hard to admit?
2. So? The other countries on the belligerent list are receiving more support by several orders of magnitude. Not to mention trade to the Allies and other European countries continuing to go up as the war went on, clearly the war wasn’t the deciding factor.

The numbers OBJECTIVELY show a decrease in German trade to a pitiful amount. In the lead up to the US’s entry, quite literally the lowest of any European country (let alone adjusted per-capita). German U-boats were sinking US trade vessels up until the end, strange way to treat your trade parter?

The numbers OBJECTIVELY show USSR-German trade in war materials increasing as the war starts, with no significant support to the Allies right up until they’re invaded. There’s not any arguing this.

Pointing to post-WWII is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Either country could (and often does) gesture broadly at the Cold War to justify their actions.

Why is it so hard to admit that Saint Stalin and the USSR engaged in hard geopolitics? Somehow you’re trying to push the narrative of the Soviets being weak victims that begged and pleaded and were forced to concede to German demands. But you’ll also claim they’re the sole reason that the Allies won WWII. Which is it?

There’s a counterfactual history where the Soviets remain neutral and the Allies will still almost certainly win (though at a greater cost). The Axis simply didn’t have the manpower or resource access to keep up, hence their need to engage the USSR for oil. They certainly sped the war to it’s end, but that doesn’t change the fact that they could have made many different decisions if snuffing out fascism was their top priority.

1. Damn, if only there were suppliers of finished goods that also were strategically aligned on fighting the Nazis. But if you can’t blame the USSR for a half measure non-aggression pact with the Nazis then you surely can’t blame the Allies for withholding trade to a country not committed to the fight. After all, the Soviets got the supplies they wanted once they were actually in the war.
2. Nazi economic policy prevented profits from leaving Germany, and the fascist regimes were not subtle in their nationalization threats. Not much of a surprise that private enterprise will toe the line when faced with takeover vs nominal ownership. In terms of actual trade (ie: not Coke factories staying open to make Fanta), US exports to Germany dropped 97% from 1938-1939.

I’m by no means arguing for the Democratic™️ ideological purity of the Allies, but it’s pretty clear what the universal political thinking was in the lead up to WWII. Everyone (from Hindenburg up to the USSR) thought they could keep the Nazis at arms length and aimed at their rivals. A few fascist atrocities can be overlooked so long as they happen to the right people.

the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact

Putting aside all the usual arguments that get dismissed: What were the complex and mitigating factors that required supplying the Nazi war machine with more raw materials (oil, iron, grain, cotton, rubber, et al.) after the invasion of Poland? At the same time that the famously duplicitous Americans were enacting German tariffs and shifting economic support entirely to the Allies?

Thank God! Because we all know those backward Africans never could have done it on their own 🙄

Again, I pointed out and fully admitted to the foreign media bias. However there’s a difference between dissecting the validity of reports and wholesale discarding them because of their source. If you do that (like our friend above), you’ve abandoned your unexamined received wisdom for a different flavor of the same.

The number one thing I see on the .ml instance is a total incomprehension of how China operates and is organized domestically. I know multiple close friends who went through a full childhood education and only left as adults. I also know a few who have split experiences, growing up in America + China. I’ve also personally been and have talked to people who’ve lived their whole lives (60+ years) there.

The one common thread: it is truly a different world, especially from a political and media landscape. For the amount of shit Western countries get about whitewashing history and controlling media narrative, the Chinese government has it down to a science.

Here are just a few verifiable examples.

• The Chinese air quality index is vastly inflated vs America’s. I’ve been in a Chinese city with a thicker orange smog haze than I’ve ever seen in America categorized as only light/moderate. Conversely, Chinese visitors have specifically commented on how good America’s AQI is vs the Chinese equivalent.

• China’s lock down of VPNs is already broad and growing faster, you can find dozens of threads like these. I personally struggled with this during my visits (Mullvad failed) and only my friend’s private work VPN had access. A local we were staying with asked to borrow our access because there was no way he could get a working VPN otherwise.

• The Chinese GPS system is a controlled black box and not compatible with the global standard. Your local map provider probably won’t work there unless they feed their data to the Chinese system to align their coordinates.

• The government has multiple official arms of censorship that have no parallel in the west. The imagined censorship of simply taking down every government criticism is naive; the system is careful calibrated and monitored to track and suppress collective action. Though I know many will dismiss the research due to country of origin/funding, I would encourage you to read the findings on this just because it’s really interesting.

• China has restrictions on practicing journalism that are complete outliers from the international norm. These include mandatory registration, ethics requirements (??), education level, and arbitrary restrictions on coverage of events and topics. [As a hint, this is a big reason for the dearth of outsider evidence]

This all builds an environment where the tight domestic control and censorship isn’t just common, but expected. Certain subjects just aren’t taught in schools (for example, Mao’s handling of Tibet). Posts on the Chinese Twitter equivalent dissappear all the time with no fanfare. Current CCP politics isn’t deeply discussed online because there’s no point.

This leads to the disconnect between outsider expectations and the domestic realities. We’re so used to seeing politics, news coverage and debates blasted all over western media that we don’t apply the proper lens to our access to Chinese events.

That’s what I mean when I say I don’t have a dog in the race. You can sometimes make educated deductions between what western media says and the official CCP statements, but completely throwing out all outside sources leaves you in the dark. On a topic like the repression of a minority ethnic group in the obscure outskirts, you’ll never find the clear answer.

My point was to rebuff all these comments saying there’s no way X Y Z could happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence + where there’s smoke there’s fire.

The problem is you and your strawman will never agree on how much fire there could be when you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.

Going to reply in broad strokes here due to length:

Previously: […]

1. Re-read my comment and point out where I definitively endorsed that every single one of those things is happening. I listed what I did as examples of the ways a genocide can manifest outside of mass murder.
2. You’re citing the imperialist genocide definition, look up what Lemkin’s original definition was.
3. Just for fun and as an example of how futile these arguments are: Uyghur birth rate allegedly dropped something like 60% from 2016 - 2019 compared to a fractional drop for the general population. Plenty of sources will say a similar number and how it’s from official records but you’ll refuse to accept them so there’s no acceptable way to prove it

[Salafi terrorists]…

1. Want to be clear I’m not making any political endorsement about the moral standing of any side. Terrorist/freedom fighter, etc…
2. Any violent separatist group has a resentful seed, people don’t blow stuff up solely because some foreign government told them to.
3. Yeah, non-state belligerents are going to get foreign funding, not sure what that has to do with my point.

[Tibetan immolation]

1. More funding talk, more dismissing sources…
2. You can find images of these. I won’t post here because they’re pretty graphic, but that’s concrete evidence in my book. Feel free to equivocate on exact number and intent, but my point was to show that these extreme protests happen.

[border restrictions etc…]

1. Pointing out that a disproportionate amount of the restricted area is in these controversial regions
2. Not all countries require a permit to approach these areas, generally they’ll let you walk through with a regular visa
3. There are accounts of rural villages and obscure rural highways being sporadically restricted. Odd for obvious reasons but again you’ll dismiss and there’s no way for either of us to officially confirm the specific locations 🤷

I’m not here with any specific dog in this race, but it’s clear that these counter arguments come in with a predetermined conclusion and deflect anything that doesn’t fit as a lie. Is there any claim the Chinese government could make that you wouldn’t defend?

It’s not up for argument that this repression has happened in China’s long history, you can check any history book you like (even China’s). The modern difference is careful media control and domestic isolation, which is perfect for creating this exact vague deniability.

…a single instance of a Uyghur being killed

Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions. In fact, the reason you’re so focused on people dying is because imperialist powers felt the need to redefine it to allow their exploitation. Even in its more narrow definition it still includes things like abducting and re-education of children and malicious targeted actions (forced labor, restricted reproduction, relocation, etc…).

China is a massive country, and has always had issues with maintaining control over its more distant and ethnically distinct pockets. This stretches back centuries right up to now. For example: 100+ years of separatism, uprisings and violent incidents in East Turkestan. Or more recently, 160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009. In this lens, there’s plenty of evidence that could support these accusations.

Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang

This sounds like something people parrot only if they haven’t actually traveled China. For one, Xinjiang is massive. It’s about the size of Iran; 1/6 of China by land area. Saying you can visit it is like saying you could visit somewhere in France + Spain + Germany + Italy.

For two, foreigners require a special permit to visit ~12-15% of China (varying by year). This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas. There’s no official list published for obvious reasons but they’ll certainly let you know if you’re not welcome.

As a disclaimer for those of you furiously typing whattaboutgaza: Yes that’s a genocide. Yes, many countries have engaged in similar kinds of repression. Yes media will amplify stories that paint rivals in a bad light, no that’s not unique to western media.