The admins on lemmynsfw.com have decided to allow “non-IRL loli”, i.e. drawn porn involving children/teenagers. (Post: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29633).
Irrelevant of the moral issues that this poses, such content is illegal in many countries (e.g the UK). Continuing to federate with lemmynsfw.com will put users at risk of significant legal repercussions.
Please would the admins consider defederating unless lemmynsfw change their policy.
UPDATE: The lemmynsfw admins posted an clarification here: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29826. My original argument for defederating doesn’t stand any more.
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If any illegal content would be posted there, let us know. If it’s 1 community, we can block the community. If it’s all over the place, we can defederate. But I see defederation as a last resort. If there are other ways to keep our server safe I prefer that.
I think it’s worth pointing out that legality depends on jurisdiction and while it’s obviously a requirement to obey the your (and other admins’) local laws, it’s not quite so clear-cut when it comes to other countries.
Eg. It’s illegal to criticize Hong Kong’s government under their National Security Law. But I think we’d (the community here, not just you and me) agree that lemmy.world has absolutely no obligation to follow that law.
They did make a poll and then later announced they’ll be banning underage anime art and IRL imagery . But not art of cute/short characters because it’s impossible to discern if they’re over 18 or not. It’s the whole Pokemon debate all over again.
2 weeks ago: Lemmy is so amazing, create an account anywhere and you can access everything! It’s like forums but better!
Now: defederate >:(
Ugh. I get the concern in scenarios like this, but in the last couple of days every instance has calls to defederate from this or that. Eventually it’s just gonna be small islands of “very compatible” instances.
Well, guess it’s back to making separate accounts for everything!
Defederation leads to echo chambers. I’ve certainly had enough of that in Reddit!
With the idea of self-hosted decentralized servers also comes a responsibility. With sites like reddit, the corporation behind it is responsible for everything, including moderating potentially illegal content. With lemmy, this is on the individual servers to handle.
I think it’s a bit silly to get all dramatic and say stuff like “Well, guess it’s back to making separate accounts for everything!” just because instances allowing potentially illegal cp are to be de-federated…
That’s a bit dramatic. Most of the big instances will stay federated with most of the others.
Some topics that are just too intolerable to the general population will get isolated. Pedo content, Nazis, etc. if you feel you need to make a second account to go participate in those things, well you do you I guess…
Well, Beehaw already defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, a few fairly normal instances don’t federate with lemmy.ml, even more don’t federate with lemmigrad, calls to defed from lemmynsfw were there from its very first day, never mind burggit.
Like, okay I get it that it’s not a drop-in Reddit replacement and instance owners can do whatever they like - but I still wonder where it leads at the end.
Well lemmy.ml is run by pretty much the same people as lemmygrad. Before the Reddit drama .ml was filled with mostly the same kind of politics. They chose the .ml extension to signify Marxism-Leninism I believe. So it’s not that surprising that some have blocked them.
But anyway, where does it lead? We’re just in flux. Everyone is figuring everything out. Instances will stabilize. Norms will be established. Everything will be fine. Some pockets will get isolated, but I believe the vast majority will stay together. Once in a while there will be some drama, some splits and spats. It’ll be fine, people will shift. Balance will return.
Well, maybe. I’m just skeptical and feel that people have more of a tendency to isolate their islands rather than connect.
And once the disconnect happens, it’s difficult to reverse.
Maybe I’m wrong. Guess we’ll see.
On the other hand, there’s the advantage that if one finds “their own” instance, they are free to speak out their mind, while in the big melting pot there’s always a risk of offending somebody by just being a little edgy. Whether that’s actually a good thing…
I’d say the kbin integration was a pretty big win? And there are tons of new servers coming up - I wouldn’t worry about losing a few. There are other nsfw communities as well.
De-federating from someone is totally fine, and that should be up to instance owners (ideally with some input from users)
I think those countries should put the resources used to go after neckbeards fapping to drawings to investigate people trafficking real children.
the venn diagram is a circle
also, that aside, “the resources” here are a little different, mounting investigative operations to bust lolicons/pedophiles (same thing) requires more resources than just flipping the switch off on some pedophile’s ability to communicate freely
Are you the kind of person that says people playing FPS games are more likely to become mass shooters?
It might not be our liking but loli is at worst a victimless crime, not the same as the real pedophiles (eg Epstein’s associates, like Prince Andrew). I think by saying they’re the same, you’re actually belittling the gravity of the other.
It’s not the assault, violence or having a victim making them a pedophile. It’s the attraction to minors. It doesn’t matter if fictional or real, they are pedophiles.
Many of them probably even act in it, e.g. masturbation.
It’s reprehensible but if they’re not really acting on it, as in harming someone else (masturbation, really?), then why should it be a crime and the state be involved? What are you suggesting is that the mere thought of it, involving fictional people at that, should be a crime. Are we certain we want thoughtcrime?
That sort of vilification only makes them more likely to hide instead of seeking professional help. Why would they, if doing so would open them to ostracization?
You are jumping to conclusions here. Also just thinking of extremes is not helpful. Acting on your desires to perform sexual acts with children is absolutely pedophilic behavior. So masturbating is just that. It is not just a thought, it is an action. Even though non pedophiles don’t even have these thoughts without disgust.
Just ask yourself, would you ever be comfortable leaving a child alone with someone who sexualizes children? My answer would be absolutely not, they are pedophiles and a huge risk to the childs safety.
How to solve this or manage the risk is another way more complicated topic.
This is a really good argument until you learn that mass shooters are less than one in a million but child sexual abusers are more than one in a hundred, despite there being tens of millions of FPS players and probably only hundreds of thousands of CSAM consumers in America. It’s a catchy gotcha but it completely fails to hold up under material scrutiny.
Mass shootings and child sexual abuse are very different things, and so are CSAM and video games. You would benefit from losing some of the reductivism you’ve got there.
You’re actually supporting my point. Despite tens of millions of FPS players, there’s only less than one in a million cases of mass shooting. Meanwhile child abuse is more common despite loli stuff being uncommon in US compared to places like Japan. This to me seems like an argument to say there’s no correlation between the fictional and real counterparts.
If anything, being unable to set apart reality from fiction and saying both are the same is the reductionist stance.
Why would we need to defederate? Just don’t subscribe to their communities and you won’t see their content
deleted by creator
That’s the case for anything that anyone posts on any federated server.
Wow the potential for a /c/lemmydrama is already brewing with that admin’s responses lol.
I see what they mean about petite/young looking people, but is this the hill they really want to die on? They’re making proper moderation more difficult for themselves by splitting hairs.
2023 and we still get animephobia?
please say /s rn
I wish there was a way to exclude the whole instance from my personal feed without requiring admins to defederate it. Right now I have to play whackamole with new communities popping up. And it’s not just the NSFW stuff.
I’m taking the opposite approach, that is, instead of blocking what I don’t want to see, I join what I do want to see.
Blocking is not effective if you want a “curated” feed IMO, new communities are being created all the time, especially now that many are migrating over from reddit, you might never “end” blocking stuff.
OP post is a different situation though, that kind of content is illegal in many countries (especially EU), just being federated with them could pose a legal risk, it’s not just stuff some people don’t want to see.
I’ve been browsing through new as a way of finding communities to join. The NSFW stuff in that feed is unideal but easy enough to ignore, whereas content that could send me to jail is a whole different ballgame.
whereas content that could send me to jail is a whole different ballgame
Exactly. And as someone else already pointed out, it just takes a single user subscribing there to have that content cached here, that would put all of us at risk from a legal point of view.
As a federation shouldn’t we start with Diplomacy? This is a prime example. We didn’t wait long enough, and it was clarified rather quickly.
Defederation should require more deliberation and unless an immediate emergency shouldn’t there be other actions under consideration first.
If you choose an instance that has nsfw disabled, you can’t see those communities on lemmynsfw anyway, even via the search functions.
Instances that do have nsfw enabled needs to be careful as if one of their users goes onto an other instances community with illegal nsfw stuff, it’s cached on their servers anyway just like your browser caches the images and videos from websites. I guess the cache can be deleted on a cron job but still something I would wanna stay away from if I was a Lemmy instance admin. Defederating would be what stops this.
UPDATE: The lemmynsfw admins posted an clarification here: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29826. My original argument for defederating doesn’t stand any more.
Drawn a.k.a. not real and not obviously underage a.k.a. not attempting to depict illegal situations, doesn’t seem like a problem.
Although I agree there should be more ways to filter instances, per user. A blacklist along with the whitelist that is subscription. Show local, show subscribed, show everything (except blacklisted).
A quick glance at the post gave me the impression lots of people from that instance are against the change. I’d wait and see how things settle before defederating. Defederating is detrimental to lemmy/kbin growth, it should be a last resort approach.
The problem with that approach is that it puts users here in legal jeopardy. Right now if I browse “All” rather than “Local” I’m risking jail time
Then block the nsfw communitys… You can do that yourself, if you don’t want to be with them sign up for another account at a instance that blocks them completely.
The problem with that is there are so many. Id rather just be able to block the entire instance all at once. I know for certain I want nothing from lemmynsfw period or any other porn instance. I should be able to just block them off.
In my mind there’s a big difference between NSFW and child porn, and where I am, that content is considered to be child porn. I’m happy to deal with filtering NSFW content for myself, but I don’t want to risk CP.
The reason I phrased the OP as a question was that I suspect most users here will have a similar view to me and be in favor of blocking servers hosting CP. If that isn’t the case I’ll happily go find another instance, I don’t want to enforce my boundaries on everyone else.
Child porn? Its just drawings, just block them off yourself this stuff was on reddit for a loooong time as well until the advertisers said no porn.
If they’d actually host child porn i think they would be instantly blocked off from all other instances.
The problem is that in my country those drawings are legally the same thing as child porn. As I said in the OP, I’m not making a moral judgement here, but as a purely practical matter that content is concerning to me.
Were do you live?
And in that case you should turn off nsfw in general for your account (and if you want porn sign up at burggit or LemmyNSFW) thats how i handle it personally
They did post an update about it
Looks like its less about blatant loli/shota content and more about “characters who are petite/young-looking but not obviously underage”
How and if that changes anyones feelings about it is up to them.
I don’t care about drawings, there are no victims, but if it’s illegal by law it poses a problem.
Its pretty much the same with lolli shit, most don’t like it but it’s not illegal where the server is hosted. If you don’t want to see shit, block it yourself. You don’t need a instance admin to do it for you, we aren’t on reddit where everything has to be PC and advertising Friendly.
Pretty sure we are hosted on Hetzner in Germany, which makes this very problematic, especially if the admins of lemmynsfw aren’t able to properly identify illegal content right away and it spreads through the whole network.
Ah… Yeah in Germany its not illegal to own it, but the Distribution is, at the moment however, i would argue in favor of waiting a day or two to see how they do it, they recently made a update on this policy.
Owning child porn in Germany is very much illegal and a fast track to jail time.
Its not child porn its drawings and thats legally a different thing
Pornografische Darstellungen, die den sexuellen Missbrauch von Kindern zum Gegenstand haben, unterliegen gemäß § 184b Abs. 1 StGB einem absoluten Verbreitungsverbot – auch wenn sie ein fiktives Geschehen zeigen.[5] Sowohl das Verbreiten und Zugänglichmachen als auch entsprechende Vorbereitungshandlungen werden mit Freiheitsstrafe von drei Monaten bis zu fünf Jahren bestraft. Der Besitz von Darstellungen, die ein rein fiktives, nicht wirklichkeitsnahes Geschehen wiedergeben (vgl. § 184b Abs. 3 StGB), ist dagegen nicht rechtswidrig.[6] Laut einigen der bekanntesten Anwalt- und Rechts-Portale ist dies so zu verstehen, dass fiktive Pornografie von Kindern und Minderjährigen, bei der es offensichtlich ist, dass es sich um rein fiktive Werke wie zum Beispiel Cartoons und Comics oder Anime und Manga handelt, in Deutschland weder strafrechtlich verfolgt werde noch rechtswidrig sei. Eine Ausnahme sei, wenn nicht ohne Weiteres erkennbar sei, ob es sich um eine computergenerierte Darstellung oder ein reales Geschehen handelt.[7][8] Die Bundesregierung stellte bei dem Gesetzesentwurf ergänzend klar, dass der Straftatbestand „auf die Fälle beschränkt bleiben“ solle, „in denen durch Videofilm, Film oder Foto ein tatsächliches Geschehen wiedergegeben wird“. Demgegenüber sah sie bei „kinderpornographischen Romanen, Zeichnungen und Zeichentrickfilmen“ den Strafgrund der Regelung nicht als erfüllt an, weil deren Besitz nicht dazu beitrage, dass Kinder als „Darsteller“ bei pornographischen Aufnahmen missbraucht würden. Der Abschnitt „wirklichkeitsnah“ wurde später für fiktive Darstellungen aufgrund der rasanten technischen Fortentwicklung und Perfektionierung virtueller Darstellungen hinzugefügt.[9]
-Wikipedia
Furthermore “Lolli” is a very stretchable word and is often used for shortstacks in general or flat chested in general.
“characters who are petite/young-looking but not obviously underage”
yeah of course they’re not gonna come out and say “yeah we want to host and share drawn CSAM” and they’re going to be weasely and sneaky about it, do you really plan to take pedophiles and pedophile enablers at the honor of their word here
At least with jerboa you can turn off NSFW so you don’t need to see it. Alternatively just stick to local or subscribed and you don’t have to worry about seeing anything.
Irrelevant of the moral issues that this poses, such content is illegal in many countries (e.g the UK).
As I commented before on this specific issue earlier, I think that this argues that lemmy/kbin really need a more-descriptive mechanism for classifying content than just “NSFW” or “not-NSFW”.
Yeah thats already a request on github, a NSFL flair sorta say wich i think is good.
Yes. A thousand times yes.
