Imagine posting this unironically
Imagine you’re a wizard. You’re running away from another wizard who wants to kill you. You reach an art school. You notice that you won’t be able to get away in there, but then you notice a nato flag on the other wizard’s social media profile. You shout the magic spell: “Northkorea!” The other wizard stops. What happened?
spoiler
The spell turns liberals into hitler instantly, and hitler can’t get into art school
The US has been lying about the Israeli occupation of Palestine for decades. I wouldn’t trust them on anything even if they by chance tell the truth once or twice.
A defector is going to have an inherent dislike of the DPRK because they… well, defected. If someone is happy there, they’re not going to defect are they?
Bull$hitters like Yeonmi Park don’t make me inclined to believe defectors.
This is a good point, we should ask some average North Koreans directly, that way we get a better balance of viewpoints. Maybe we can catch some on a vacation abroad or something.
Would you believe it if they said that it’s not actually that bad?
You actually can, they usually go to places like China and Russia which they share close trade ties and land bridges with.
They can and have been asked.
Well you can’t believe them because they’re brainwashed /s
The way liberals flip out when you don’t agree that the DPRK is literally Mordor is exactly how conservatives react when you defend any other country that the US attacks. “Oh yeah, i bet it’s a real heavenly paradise with no problems! Why don’t you move there if you love it so much?! Why don’t you go there if it’s sooo perfect?! Kiss them on the lips and marry them maybe? Fuckin stupid traitor.”
Just instant ridiculous maximalism, like a 12 year old who gets called out for being wrong about something and responds with “Oh yeah and you’re never wrong ever, right?!” No ability or willingness to engage with what’s actually being said, just an instant defensive jingoist freakout.
exactly, ike this one from @Sanctus@lemmy.world :
Ah yis, the CIA knows nothing same as any other westoid. But you, dear OP, you know the DPRK so well. You can totally tell when Burgerland tells a fantasy about The Good Place Cause You Like It.
See also: every instance of “You worship Great Leader” type shit
A bit on information from the DPRK I wrote earlier:
The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:
Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.
Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious.
Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:
In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea’s young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don’t take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.
“It’s more symbolic,” Lee said, adding, “My take is North Koreans don’t believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale.”
These aren’t tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of “state-mandated haircut styles”, as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles. As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US Empire.
Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.
It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.
In fact, many citizens who flee the DPRK actually seek to return, and are denied by the ROK. Even BBC is reporting on a high-profile case where a 95 year old veteran wishes to be buried in his homeland, sparking protests by pro-reunification activists in the ROK to help him go home in his final years.
Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.
What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.
So, are things bad there or good there? Because if your argument is that Western sanctions make it bad to be there, then why not lobby to push for the end of sanctions instead?
But that doesn’t seem to be the case here. It feels like you are trying to have your cake and eat it. It is simultaneously a good place to be and suffering under sanctions, defectors are paid lots of money to exaggerate and live destitute lives to need that money.
Like, it feels like you are saying people like it there, which… Yeah, people generally like to be in places they’ve always been. But that doesn’t make it good there. There are people in the US that live in very poor conditions in cities and towns with access to poor water, poor education, poor nutrition, etc., and like it there. Does that mean it is actually good there instead? No, obviously. That is silly.
Like, I dunno, man. Any country that does military parades is immediately kind of a red flag for me. That gives me strong nationalistic and patriarchal vibes and is not a thing that makes me think unbiased.
I do push for an end to sanctions, I don’t know what you mean by claiming I don’t. I want the US Empire off the peninsula, and I want all sanctions to end. I think that’s the first step towards reunification without nearly as much bloodshed as any other outcome, maybe even none, but that could just be wishful thinking on my part to see a colonized and divided people heal.
Secondly, the DPRK is nationalistic. Nationalism in the context of resisting imperialism and colonization is entirely different from nationalism in the context of supporting imperialism and colonization. Nationalism in the global south is generally progressive, in that it directly opposes imperialism, while nationalism in the global north is dangerous because it perpetuates it. The global south has a national interest towards their liberation, the global north has a national interest towards perpetuating imperialism.
My point is that the DPRK is slowly but steadily recovering and improving, and isn’t the embodiment of Mordor that western orgs paint it to be. It’s much closer to Cuba, and the two countries have historically been firm friends.
I appreciate that you defended the nationalistic part, but I don’t appreciate that you glossed over the patriarchal part, but I digress.
Nationalism is just a crutch to bring support to the ruling class of any country. Saying that it is good if the ruling class is good or even just has good intentions is… Not good? I shouldn’t have to explain how that kind of fervor can be coopted. Nationalism doesn’t just disappear when it’s no longer needed.
But, personally, as a US citizen, I don’t think anyone I know thinks of North Korea as a hellscape. Media rarely portrays them as one, although it comes up more in Korean media, which does have some proliferation here. In the news, it’s just about the weapon capabilities, and the military parades, the former I don’t really care about as much coming from a country with an arsenal capable of destroying the world many times over and occasionally little hesitancy to do so, and the latter I very much do. Same with Cuba. If anything, American media tries to convince us of all African and sometimes South American countries are hellscapes. Mostly, we just get told Cuba has old cars and is poor and stuff about Fidel Castro, and North Korea is also poor and very militaristic and nationalistic. But, like, that seems pretty accurate from your replies?
I’m a Marxist-Leninist, so my analysis of nationalism fits that. I’m a fan of Frantz Fanon’s work, especially The Wretched of the Earth. Nationalism in the global south must be correctly analyzed, and that involves class analysis, which you brought up. In a standard, colonized or imperialized country, the nationalist capitalists can ally with the working class against comprador capitalists and the imperialist countries. This has been the case in Algeria, Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam, and more. Once free from the comoradors, next comes overthrowing the nationalist bourgeoisie.
The DPRK, however, performed land reform, effectively ending landlords as a class, and now has relegated the bourgeoisie to special economic zones like Rason, where trade with Russia and China is more common. The ruling class has been the working class. The DPRK has a strong sense of internationalism, it was one of the primary forces in liberating African countries from colonialism alongside Cuba. The “Non-Aligned Movement” was an internationalist and global-south focused coalition, of which the DPRK was a major player.
In its current context, the strong millitancy is a matter of survival against brutal sanctions and constant invasion threats from the US Empire. They are forced to be on-guard at all times, because the invasion drills practiced in the ROK might at any point become real. It’s a matter of survival.
As for depicting the DPRK as a hellscape, there are people that think smartphones don’t exist there, or that they are all eating rats and have to have the same haircut, etc. etc. They are poor, but they do well with what they have. Ending sanctions would probably see them thrive. Same with Cuba, which is portrayed as a totalitarian nightmare.
None of these countries are perfect utopias, but at the same time no utopia exists, and every country in the global south deserves to be treated with dignity.
I think there is a big difference between eating rats and having the same haircut in terms of propaganda angles. Like, I could believe the second one because a strong national identity tied to looking a certain way feels very in line with traditionally militaristic and patriarchal countries, but trying to tie that to eating rats is moat and baileying. Anyone that believes the eating rats is a small minority and would be given skeptical looks, especially without proof.
But seeing you do that at the same time you tie North Korea to Cuba feels like that’s the point? You see why I am skeptical of your premise. You keep pointing at eating rats and imperialism like it shields you from the other issues you don’t address.
In my experience, the people who believe the rat stories are the most common. Further, the haircut story is also false, propagandizing against the DPRK takes on many forms.
I addressed everything you said. The DPRK is poor, yes. It’s also heavily sanctioned, but despite that the economy is growing and it’s getting better. The DPRK is nationalistic, yes, but that isn’t a bad thing, and it’s extremely internationalist in foreign policy. It is millitaristic, yes, by necessity for its position as a nation under constant threat.
The DPRK isn’t a perfect country, nor is it a paradise. It also isn’t the saturday morning cartoon villian like the media portrays it to be, as constantly threatening to nuke everyone or enforce the same haircuts. That’s my point.
How can you tell me it is false at the same time you tell me there’s not a lot of information passing between the two? These statements are in contention. But, like, I wouldn’t even think they literally all have the same haircut. I would think there is a prevalence to have similar hairdos. Because nationalism is like that. You idolize the military, you get people trying to look like the military. It’s not rocket surgery.
This is a weird misinformation combat strategy, where you tell me something isn’t true that is for sure not true, and then point to something that might or might not be true and say that it is the same thing. Because they’re not. If anything, it makes me feel like the opposite. Heck, I can even say that someone eating rats isn’t particularly crazy when you make me think about it. I’ve seen some poor conditions, and eating squirrels and rabbits isn’t that different from eatings rats, and there are people that do that here in America. Like, is eating a rat even that bad? It feels kinda like shaming someone for trying to survive. And I didn’t even really care about the haircut thing! Omg!
So, are things bad there or good there?
Real life is never so simple as to be either good or bad. Are things good in the country you live in? Are they bad? Can you really pick one or the other, when it highly depends on personal views and priorities? For you it may be good, and for others it may be bad. Especially considering we know so little about countries like DPRK.
I think the main point here is that, whatever it’s currently like inside DPRK, it’s being actively made worse by outside entities, notably the American Empire. And the information we have available is extremely unreliable.
Like, I dunno, man. Any country that does military parades is immediately kind of a red flag for me.
So basically all countries on the planet?
I don’t have an issue with having an issue with all existing countries. Why would I? It doesn’t defend your point to say “oh so you hate when other people do it?” Yes! Obviously! I think military parades are bad, specifically because it glorifies violence and promotes a national identity around use of that violence to keep people insular. Like, if you dislike imperialism, you kinda should dislike nationalism, even when used in self-defense because it is a huge double-edged sword.
Real life is never so simple as to be either good or bad. Are things good in the country you live in?
Good and bad are comparators. Some places are better, some are worse. But the argument indicates that we should treat an unknown as better than a known, and that the red flags are just flags. I like the optimism, truly, but I would rather see evidence for it.
I don’t have an issue with having an issue with all existing countries
Fair. I was just unsure whether you really did mean all countries.
Some places are better, some are worse.
And some places are better for some people, while being worse for other people. Not necessarily always, but sometimes it’s a matter of preferences. One person may choose to live in a country with fewer liberties due to preferable climate. For them that would be a good choice, but for you it may not be.
But the argument indicates that we should treat an unknown as better than a known, and that the red flags are just flags.
Personally I didn’t get that impression.
You never elaborated on why nationalism in the global south against imperialism is a bad thing, you just ignored it. Nationalism is bad when it’s reactionary, ie reinforces imperialism, but nationalist movements can be good, like Palestinian liberation. Further, I never said information on the DPRK was impossible, just difficult, and explained why there’s a big misinformation campaign. I never said unknowns are better than knowns.
I wonder why there isn’t a more reliable source of info coming out of North Korea. It must be a near utopia in there if the only people that make it out of the country are these unreliable defectors that universally agree that life is bad there.
Not all defectors do agree that life is bad there. Further, no, it isn’t a utopia, and there is state media you can access, such as KCNA. The DPRK isn’t a utopia, nobody claims it is, we just agree that it’s one of the most misunderstood and propagandized against countries on the planet, and there’s logical reason for that.
They defected because they don’t think life is bad in the place they were fleeing? Why are they fleeing if they don’t believe life is bad in North Korea?
I recommend you check out some of the links I posted. In many cases they flee for the same reason Cubans do, outside pressure results in economic crisis, especially during the 90s when the USSR dissolved and their main trading partner no longer existed overnight.
So life is bad enough to need to leave to survive economically, but this isn’t them thinking life is bad there.
I’m not accepting more homework assignments and class reading than I already have, peace if you don’t want to elaborate ✌️
Shitlibs will do anything but actually read.
Learn to read halfwit
I’m saying that defectors may leave not because they believe the system itself is bad, but because of certain economic crisis inflicted from the outside. Further, some defectors leave for the ROK and find life worse than they expected, or are in some cases are kidnapped by the ROK after being lured into overseas programs. There are well-documented cases of this, which is why my comment has lots of sources, so if you want more then please see it.
Nodutdol, an anti-imperialist group of Korean expats, released a toolkit on better understanding the situation in Korea. This is more like homework, though.
So we’re all cool with public executions? That’s a sign of a healthy and free country?
Those public executions where the executed people turned out to be alive?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/17/north-korean-singer-rumoured-executed-appears-tv
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/10/asia/north-korea-army-chief-ri-yong-gil-alive/index.html
What are you referring to, specifically? Often times western media reports on outlandish stories like the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets.
Looks to be a single execution in front of a firing squad, in a millitary setting, which isn’t the same as the public executions on live TV or in public spaces you made it out to be. The one executed was stated to have been guilty of treason, which is something punishable by death in most countries. We have no other context, and the video has several jump cuts. Further still, it’s from 2 decades ago, when the DPRK was still recovering from the Arduous March, a combination of adverse weather conditions and the dissolution of the USSR resulting in mass famine.
This doesn’t provide any indication that the accused aren’t guilty, nor that public executions are a common practice (especially if we consider public executions to be televised or in public spaces), nor that this practice continues today now that their economy is doing better, nor that executions are widespread.
I literally only said “public executions”. I said nothing about live tv or specific locations, you dork
“Public” implies out in the open, not on a millitary site. Pretty much every country has done this, even if they deny it. I’m for abolishing the death penalty, but this isn’t something that appears to be as widespread of an issue or as severe as your comment implied it was.
Cowbee: “Haha! What executions? All of it is completely made up and originates from things like satire! Things are wonderful in North Korea and anyone thinking otherwise has just been deceived.”
Also Cowbee: “Look, this execution was actually not a problem because of many reasons. Besides, DPRK was just going through a rough time, and the guy probably deserved it or something. Anyways, stop trying to judge a country based on its past actions!”
They implied that the DPRK was executing people willy-nilly and for no reason in the middle of public spaces. They provided evidence of a millitary execution by firing squad with no other context. Do you have more context, more evidence, or is your only response to me taking them seriously to make a mockery of yourself and strawman me?
"In North Korea the math book says, you know, there are four American bastards. You kill two of them.
Then how many American bastards left to kill. And as a child I had to say, ‘Two American bastards.’"
“I was horrified that I felt no sympathy when I crossed a young man begging for food while his intestines leaked from his body”
But why does it matter?
Because the US Empire is systematically manufacturing consent to destroy another country, just like it does with Cuba, Iran, etc. Understanding why the US maintains a millitary foothold in the ROK, ie to project power in the region, is important.
Removed by mod
Yeah, makes me wonder if posters like OP are CIA bots/shills doing some new Operation Gladio.
You know, to ensure that anyone who says “oh, I think communists/labour were right about x” were treated like crazies.
What on earth are you talking about. Operation gladio was a cold-war program to demonize and destroy leftist / communist formations, just as the US has consistently done against the DPRK and against countless other anti-imperialist projects in the 20th century.
The CIA did so many dirty tricks against the DPRK during the special period, and committed countless atrocities against them.
How are you people twisting your brains around to think that support for targets of the US empire is somehow a US program??? This isn’t complicated.
I’m talking that US massacring people doesn’t suddenly make the genocided place fun to be.
And claiming that North Korea is a good place to live, and not seeing that it’s turning people AWAY from Communist support is either blind or stupid - truly worthy of a false flag operation.
The fact that you’ve ingested years of anti-dprk yeonmi park level slop, that you think anyone must be crazy to support them, and it’s some kind of a 3d chess pro-dprk psyop, is a level of propaganda I’ve never seen.
When all of us were asking: who’s dumb enough to believe these propagandized racist caracatures? You were thinking, yes all of its true, and anyone who questions this must be a psyop.
It’s like the someone told you older women are all baby-eating witches, and now you think it’s actually a plot when someone doesn’t demonize them with equal severity.
Tired of looking at bad propaganda©
Cant wait to look at good propaganda☭
Kinda? Propaganda just means you’re pushing a viewpoint. Climate activism is propaganda, but good. I’d rather see good communist agitprop than corpo propaganda.
Ah yis, the CIA knows nothing same as any other westoid. But you, dear OP, you know the DPRK so well. You can totally tell when Burgerland tells a fantasy about The Good Place Cause You Like It.
Doesn’t matter what the CIA actually knows, they’re never gonna tell the truth
I recommend you read my top-level comment.
I did and I still dont think any of these nations truly care about people. Not the US Empire, not the DPRK, not the Russian Empire, not anything. If these places were more interested in peace and welfare like they claim we would never be in this situation in the first place. Why would the DPRK not invite reporters in if it cared about the truth and was itself just? It would, as it would be in its own best interest. But it doesn’t, because nations are more interested in power and control than truth and welfare.
The DPRK does let in reporters, though. They don’t let in people willy-nilly, as they’ve been victims of genocide at the hands of the west, and frequently sabotage has happened under the guide of more benign groups. There are many documentaries about life in the DPRK these days such as My Brothers and Sisters in the North.
Most travelers are from Russia, China, and Cuba. Visits from Statesians are rare, because the US Empire makes it illegal to do so.
This is like a westoid sharing a YouTube video or something and expecting you to take it seriously. I cannot confirm or deny anything in that with earnest. It doesnt matter how much the .ml brigade satisfies your updoot and downdoot ratio. The DPRK is not open to free journalism and this singular tankie.tube video is not evidence of that. I’ll go watch this film on a separate platform before I make my judgments on it.
Edit: So far all I am seeing is SK and NK are both extremely controlling. She lost her SK citizenship filming this. Also, while the people of NK so far in this film seem happy. They are cut off from the net, like Lemmy and seem to not have the same amount of choice. So far my viewpoint that all states are bad is just reinforced here.
Edit 2: the social cohesion seems to be a nice way of saying there is a tight control of the flow of information into the country, restricting its people’s from developing differing viewpoints and opinions. Not entirely a good look. But its not like the capitalists to the south are better.
It’s a documentary, though, and not the only one. That’s like saying a Marvel movie is a “piratebay video,” the platform is just how I am getting it to you. I also don’t know what you mean by the “.ml brigade,” we are on Lemmy.ml, and people here are agreeing with me more than you. It’s not a coordinated thing.
The DPRK has public news outlets, and there’s reporting from the outside. It doesn’t have private news outlets, yes, but independent orgs do visit.
This only happens on ml comms so you can say what you want but ya’ll are king dogpilers.
https://rsf.org/en/country/north-korea
It really doesn’t appear to be open
Leftist opinions are pretty common on Lemmy.ml, Hexbear, Lemmygrad, and other instances. I guess if you are on a .world account it might seem different. I see leftists dogpiled in Lemmy.world threads too, I chalk that up to instances being different ideologically, not any particular tendency towards “dogpiling.”
Secondly, it isn’t black and white. Reporting is thoroughly vetted. I never said it was “open,” just that accurate reporting exists internally and externally, and independent orgs do visit and report on them. They are extremely careful overall.
But if they don’t allow free press then how can you trust anything those reporters say? Everything has to be reviewed and approved by big brother.
You’d rather western press where they can publish any lie and denial of reality that suits capital interests? There are certain lies propagated by the west for the purpose of destabilizing the DPRK, which I don’t believe the DPRK is obligated to let float around in order for me to respect their democratic sovereignty.
You just won’t convince me that it’s a bad thing to enforce a shared observable reality which can be questioned and improved upon but not invented out of whole cloth to serve imperialist interests. The people don’t need to be told what their interests are; they’re the ones living their daily lives to observe that, and should be the ones doing the telling. Anything reported to them should be a plain factual recounting of events.
A democracy based on lies and manipulation is no democracy at all, which ironically happens to be what we have here in the west. For as “free” as our media purports to be, good luck getting any reach without a capitalist backing you in some form (especially before social media but even today; now that they’ve captured a large enough audience; the capitalists behind big tech are tightening up on what is allowed to have a platform). Which explains why you always see westerners project that onto any country they consider worse off and “authoritarian”, as if that is the sole reason why and actually “the free press” makes us immune to it.
Controled information will never say anything bad about the one controlling it. You don’t see that situation in the west. I could link a hundred articles with differing views on any situation. I agree that corpos are tightening the grip on info, and I oppose that at every turn. However, it makes no sense that you can condem the western world for controlling media while praising the DPRK for doing the exact same thing. “You just won’t convince me that it’s a bad thing to enforce a shared observable reality” and immediately after you flop when talking about the west. Press should be free period, and the audience should hold them to a higher standard than they do.
immediately after you flop
Where did that happen??
Press should be free period, and the audience should hold them to a higher standard than they do
These are mutually exclusive demands. You cannot have a “free press” that is also “held to a higher standard”. Either they’re free to report what they want and be influenced by outside interests, or they’re held to a standard of fact-based and unbiased reporting. The two are almost never going to coincide, especially in a system driven by capital. Whether you want to face that reality or not is your prerogative.
This isn’t actually true. The vast majority of the press, something like 90%, is controlled by mainstream, mass media. These corporations are owned by a tiny few, and recieve funding from the state for the purposes of propagandizing. The last 10% doesn’t control the narrative, because what’s true doesn’t necessarily overpower what’s commonly reported.
The fact that I can link you the prolewiki article on the DPRK as well as the wikipedia article on North Korea and both will agree in some areas and disagree in others doesn’t mean people compare by merit, but by exposure.
Do you distrust NASA to the same degree? Public press is going to be biased, but is often factual to similar or better degrees than private press, which is biased towards capital. And, again, there are people that visit from other countries that report on it.
