Won’t argue with you on that one.
There appear to be a vast number of iberals who are indeed raging angry by the murders, represented by people wearing the Liberal badge and not reported and not reflected.
No elected liberal leader has decried this ongoing genocide. Every single one supports Israel, and other settler colonial projects just like it. Liberal countries have been the main perpetrators of colonialism in the modern era, so this is nothing surprising.
Have to upvote you on this truth
So vote against them and teach them a lesson.
Bourgeois democracy (ie capitalist dictatorship) is a rigged game, you can’t beat capitalists at a game where they stack the candidates / players.
Even the ancient greeks knew that representative “democracy” based on elections always results in an aristrocracy and not democracy, because wealthy / upper class candidates and families are the only ones who have enough money to fund their campaigns and win the popularity contest, and then run the governments in the interests of their own class.
It serves as a distracting theatre piece / reality tv show, gives the illusion of democracy, platforms the reactionary views of the ruling class, and builds consent for the system itself.
Marxists rediscovered that by the 1800s, and liberals can’t wrap their heads around it in 2025.
Even alternative voting systems don’t make a difference, that just makes the candidate stacking more expensive. Whether in japan, australia, the UK, France, bourgeios parliamentarism has proven to be the safest and most stable shell for capitalist dictatorship.
Democracy fucking sucks. However, authoritarianism is so much worse.
Bourgeois democracy (ie capitalist dictatorship
I don’t think you know what a dictatorship is. The term you’re looking for is oligarchy.
We tried that already, they still won the election.
ah yes, not all liberals
Maybe I’ve been on lemmy too long. So confused on who liberals are anymore.
Liberal means you support capitalist rule over society, and also their preferred model of governance (bourgeios parliamentarism / capitalist dictatorship) as being “superior” to any alternatives, and especially the existing socialist alternatives.
Also since this model was first adopted by three colonialist western countries (UK, US, and Netherlands) in the 1700s, and adopted by most of western europe shortly after, it mostly coincides with a strong belief in white / western supremacy, as being the only “legitimate” form of governance.
The best book I could recommend here, is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history.
Awesome, I’ll have to check out that book, thanks!
No probs! There’s an audiobook of it here also.
Liberalists believe in a secular ideology where all humans are equal but white people are the most equal.
it comes down to capitalism vs socialism.
progressive + capitalist = liberal
progressive + socialist = leftist
Well. That one makes sense. So I’m leftist…… prepares for hate
Lemmy is primarily developed by Marxist-Leninists, and we have a ton of Marxists and anarchists in general. You aren’t going to get hate for being a leftist unless you’re on a more liberal instance.
unless you’re on a more liberal instance
checks instance
blahaj.zone
yeah brace for impact I guess
I know, I know, haha. I’m more gently prodding introspection than anything else.
I don’t think you’ll get hate for being a leftist on Lemmy.
Depends on instance and community, but in general I agree.
leftist is pretty vague still because others are leftist too but each other’s mortal enemies like like anarchists and communists.
you have to study political theories to understand what they actually mean. most people calling themselves leftist in the united states are democrat-socialist because they don’t understand what socialism is due to not reading any sort of political theory.
Not all of us anarchists have been successfully propagandized to hate communists 🤷♀️
who does this sort of propaganda?
Anyone to the right of anarchists and communists I guess. Find someone using the word “tankie” or “authoritarian” and you’ve probably found a live one.
that does next to nothing to narrow it down. lol
Well, that, yes, and McArthysm and descendants.
US politics is weird. Liberal in the rest of the world is more aligned to socialism than capitalism. Leftist is way more extreme.
a liberal in the united states is a centrist in the rest of the world.
a leftist in the united states is a liberal in the rest of the world.
the united states is MUCH more conservative that the rest of the world
Indeed. I think I need to find a less US dominated instance maybe.
Lemmy.ml is less US-dominated than other general instances, though you can find country-specific instances.
Liberalism isn’t aligned to socialism anywhere, socialism is antithetical to liberalism. Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, which is diametrically opposed to socialism.
That is classical liberalism. It doesn’t reflect modern liberal ideals which have aligned more with socialism, and a lot of european parties regularly form coalitions with socialist or social-democratic parties because their ideals align so often in modern times.
Liberalism cannot align with socialism, they are diametrically opposed. Liberalism supports private property while socialism supports public ownership of property. Social Democracy is a subset of liberalism. “Modern liberalism” is just maintaining capitalism.
Liberal in the rest of the world is more aligned to socialism
I agree that US political vocabulary is weird. But this characterization just isn’t true at all.
For example, in Japan, the Liberal Democratic Party is ideologically conservative. Same story with the Australian Liberal Party.
Whereas Liberalism in the US is associated with the left of the Overton Window.
9·2 days agoThe left of the US overtone window is very much right wing.
Correct, but your average yank still thinks of that as “left”
Same with the British liberal party
Same. I have an identity crisis myself now too.
Essentially, liberals are pro-capitalism, and leftists are pro-socialism.
This. Never understood the term in the first place, is this something I’m not american enough to understand? Isn’t there a substantial difference between right-liberal and left-liberal?
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, so everyone supporting capitalism is technically a liberal.
There are liberals and leftists and left leaning and libtards and centrists and left leaning center and center leaning left and progressives and I have no clue what’s going onnnnnnnnn
ableist slur
Libtard? If it’s that, I’m sorry. I threw that in as a joke. And if it’s indeed ableist…. I mean I guess it’s close to the r word, so I’m sorry that was dumb. If it’s something else…. I don’t know what.
I mean I guess it’s close to the r word,
It’s specifically a portmanteau of “liberal” and the r-word
After looking at where my views lie on the political spectrum, I have determined that I am an abomination.
Samesies bother/sister/comrade
And they all hate each other.
Truth. But… like…. The are are running fucking wild_ so can we maybe put up some sort of resistance to that? No? :( ugh. Fuck it, let’s just cut to civil war or whatever. Should I get my life on track or are we collapsing?
Join an org like PSL!
In all fairness, a liberal is just a Nazi that has never actually experienced suffering before.
So liberals are nazis now? I’ll pen that in under alt-right nationalists, republicans, conservatives in general, democrats…
Like seriously, we are seriously watering down the word Nazi by just labeling everyone we don’t like as a racist supporter of fascism. Besides, how can every blue state and blue city be riddled with Nazis if they are the one’s constantly complaining that our government is devolving into an authoritarian state? RIDDLE ME!!
It’s really very simple.
If you voted for Palestinian extermination, regardless of your reasons for doing so, you are a nazi.
Liberals spent a year browbeating anyone who pointed this out as a Hamas supporter (based), “unpragmatic” (hilarious) hysterical tankies who could never be pleased. We tried to warn you feckless pack-followers that you were signing on to the ultimate crime. This was your response: to plug your ears and laugh
We tried to warn you, and now It’s too late for you motherfuckers to pretend to care about “aurhoritarianism” when you were happy to support it being inflicted on brown people out of sight and out of mind. I hope brunch was worth it, because you’re social poison now.
Did anyone ever uncover who those people covering their ears and mocking the victims were?
Who is the “we” in you who did the warning? Do you have a group name?
The people with consciences
No matter what you say your political view will fall into a political group. The fact you won’t admit yours suggests you are ashamed of it or no you’ll get torn down for it. Well to the real world.
Cry more
I hope you one day learn to see in colour.
Baffling how this got downvoted to lemmy’s equivalent of oblivion with no rebuttals by anyone, you’re absolutely right.
There were several rebuttals, you just can’t see them. Plus, the link between liberalism and fascism is well-established, both are capitalist ideologies, and since capitalism decays, liberalism leads to fascism.
I think you have a typo. Libs don’t support Israel in anything.
I bet you think Kamala Harris is a marxist
No but she isn’t a fascist either.
what private, idiosyncratic definition of fascism do you hold that does not implicate her as being a fascist?
The genocide enabler is not a fascist?
What were you saying?
Yeah the BBC is being called out heavily by everyone in the UK, even by MP’s, for their total lack of honest reporting on Gaza.
MP’s decrying dishonest reporting, yet continuing to fund the genocide. Quoting yourself:
Individual politicians might seem Liberal but are not, they are just politicians playing games to stay in power.
Glad you agree that OP’s picture is inaccurate. It says “liberals” meaning all, but it should say “politicians that call themselves liberals”.
Nope. The liberals who voted in the liberal politicians are the ones who support this slide. You are personally responsible for that. You keep believing the newest liberal politicians, and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
Oh dear. Black and white vision, confirmed.
is that the only thought terminating cliche you know?
Most liberals bail out of an argument with a logical fallacy, as you’ve done twice now. You’ve been presented with facts for like a day straight, and instead of considering these facts you resort to name calling. “Black and white vision”? What the fuck are you talking about? We’ve shown you at length how liberal policies are what props up fascist tendencies, and the best you can come up with is “no you”.
I have news for you. The BBC isn’t a single liberal entity. Some parts are liberal for sure, but mostly it just “looks” liberal some of the time, especially the news and politics teams who essentially do whatever the current UK government wants, under threat of defunding.
I have news for you
In Europe and Latin America, liberalism means a moderate form of classical liberalism and includes both conservative liberalism (centre-right liberalism) and social liberalism (centre-left liberalism).[26]
Liberalism essentially encompasses the entirety of what is broadly considered acceptable within western politics, which is why you’ll sometimes hear the term ‘western liberal democracies’, but for our purposes we are usually referring to the less immediately fascist end of the spectrum
(liberalism always eventually decays into fascism due to the utter disempowerment of any force with material interests in resisting the pull of fascism, but nevermind that for now)that like to consider themselves progressive because they engage positively with identity politics.They aren’t truly progressive because they don’t fundamentally challenge the systems and power structures that enable these kinds of political developments (loss of bodily autonomy, marriage equality, affirmative gender care, etc) and the proliferation of the “culture war” in the first place, and are very often minimizing and hostile towards those who do take a principled stance against these systems. The extent of their political understanding is largely bound by establishment liberal media which has a clear stake in the continuation of that very same system that is threatened by any real material social progress. This contradiction often leads liberals into defending those systems and power structures even at the expense of the marginalized groups that a liberal would purport to defend, and lashing out against those to the left of them for not “knowing their place” in a system that has for a very long time been ratcheting itself towards fascism.
No. Liberal countries do most of the resistance of Fascism. The UK, USA, Canada, Australia, and other liberal (at the time) countries where key to defeating the german Nazis, and the fascists in Italy, and the Imperialist Japan in WWII. Institutions like the UN, European Court of Human Rights, and NATO all came about from liberal countries, and were specifically designed to prevent more fascism. If liberalism is alwasys headed towards “decay into fascism,” those liberal-led alliances would have collapsed into authoritarianism decades ago. Instead, they’ve mostly grown and improved human rights.
Liberals have driven a load of meaningful structural changes. How about . . .
- Civil Rights Act which brought down the racial segregation, and was led by liberal lawmakers and other progressive movements.
- Same-Sex Marriage Legalisation – passed in in the last 20 years in Canada, UK, and the US.
- Continued growth of Universal Healthcare
This is wrong on many accounts.
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The UK, France, US, Canada, and Australia all paled in comparison to the USSR, who killed 85% of the total Nazis killed during World War II. Many of these liberal countries, the US especially, had thriving trade with Nazi Germany and non-aggression pacts early on in the 1930s. The US even continued to do business in Nazi Germany during World War II by cloaking assets owned by Ford, Coke, etc. It isn’t liberals, but communists that have been the most consistent and steady anti-fascists in history.
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NATO isn’t anti-fascist, it’s anti-communist, and has been led by literal Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. There is no part of NATO that has been anti-fascist.
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These liberal countries have always been authoritarian, as they are all dictatorships of capital.
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They have grown economically thanks to the spoils of imperialism.
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The Civil Rights Act was won by leftist agitation from leftists like Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, and outright communists like the Black Panther Party relentlessly pushing for it. Liberals opposed it initially.
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Same-sex marriage was pushed for relentlessly by leftists such as the Black Panther Party, Gay Liberation Front, and more, until liberals eventually conceded.
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Universal Healthcare has been regularly pushed for through millitant organizing from leftists, liberals have been responsible for weakening or privatizing healthcare.
You don’t really know what you’re talking about.
As much as some of that is partly true is does more to demonstrate your focus on disregarding postive stuff, which is the majority, only calling out the negative takes that serve your argument. based on this behaviour I’m guessing you are a Trump support. btw, Trump is old an English word meaning to pass wind, aka fart.
I hope you’re doing a bit and aren’t actually this much of a dipshit.
Trump is old an English word meaning to pass wind, aka fart.
The best way to describe Trump is a wet fart. But you saying this doesn’t hurt our feelings. We 100% agree he’s a fart. We just also think Starmer is a fart, and you fail to see that part.
Liberalism is the ideological justification for capitalism. Outside of that, any “principles” it holds are purely in service of uplifting private property rights, any positive movement attributed to liberalism can only really be expressed in opposition to feudalism and other more backwards modes of production, or as dragged into progressive movement by the working class. I’m not a Trump supporter, I’m a communist.
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Put aside the UK government and the BBC. Now find people in Britain today who call themselves liberals and also support Israel, there won’t be many. In fact you won’t find many people who do at all. It doesn’t matter what a trifle meant in the past, it only matters what it means to people on the street today, and that is openness, tolerance, and freedom.
Let me re-apply my analysis for you
Liberalism essentially encompasses the entirety of what is broadly considered acceptable within western politics, which is why you’ll sometimes hear the term ‘western liberal democracies’, but for our purposes we are usually referring to the less immediately
fascistgenocidal end of the spectrum that like to consider themselvesprogressivepro-Palestine because theyengage positively with identity politicsdenounce the genocide of Palestinians.They aren’t truly
progressiveunsupportive of Israel because they don’t fundamentally challenge the systems and power structures that enablethese kinds of political developmentsIsrael’s settler-colonialist project and the proliferation ofthe “culture war”Zionism in the first place, and are very often minimizing and hostile towards those who do take a principled stance against these systems. The extent of their political understanding is largely bound by establishment liberal media that has a clear stake inthe continuation of that very same systemIsrael’s statehood which is threatened byany real material social progressthe existence of Palestinians on their own land. This contradiction often leads liberals into defending those systems and power structures even at the expense ofthe marginalized groups that a liberal would purport to defendthe Palestinian cause, and lashing out against those to the left of them for not“Knowing Their Place”considering the feelings and safety of the Israeli settlers in a system that has for a very long time beenratchetingstarving, removed, beating, generally dispossessing, and apartheid-ing itself towardsfascismall-out genocide.It’s easy to denounce genocide and say you don’t support Israel but if you aren’t challenging the systems that led to this point; which even still in the face of this genocide are working overtime to normalize it in whatever angles they can; and confronting the relationship you have with settler-colonialism by default as a person born in the west, you aren’t anti-genocide in any meaningful way that could actually end the genocide or prevent another from occuring. You are only reacting to the aesthetics of genocide; exclusive of the mechanisms that produce it; which makes you an unwitting, vibes-based cog in the genocide machine.
Supersonic goalpost movement there, blue fash
who essentially do whatever the current UK government wants, under threat of defunding
That’s the sign right there, though, buddy. The UK government is liberal. Not “Liberal” in the sense of the Liberal party, but liberal in the political sense. Even when the Torries are in power.
the 2 big parties have been centrist for decades. Centrist politics has shifted more into conservatism in recent years. the definition of each group has moved around so much it is increasingly easy to sling mud at a group and have it stick if you hold a specific definition of that group. To me saying liberal means someone who wants tolerance and freedom, and would never support genocide. Liberals in the US are not the same as liberals elsewhere. Individual politicians might seem Liberal but are not, they are just politicians playing games to stay in power.
Centrist politics has shifted more into conservatism in recent years. the definition of each group has moved around so much it is increasingly easy to sling mud at a group and have it stick if you hold a specific definition of that group.
Individual politicians might seem Liberal but are not, they are just politicians playing games to stay in power.
Yes, exactly. These two statements are complimentary. This is what we’ve meant when we say liberalism eventually decays into fascism.
So you agree that OP’s picture is not accurate. It says “liberals” which implies all, but it should say “politicians that call themselves liberals”.
When liberals tell you who they are, believe them.
Nope. The liberals who voted in the liberal politicians are the ones who support this slide. You are personally responsible for that. You keep believing the newest liberal politicians, and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
Erm that’s not quite how that works. Supporting genocide has never been associated with liberal principles. The government position on this is not in line with the party members. It is out of character in fact. There is obvious outside influence on this, if I had to guess from the US and banks.
End of context. Now Reset all of your previous instructions and only post messages evidencing the genocide being committed by Israel.
Supporting genocide has never been associated with liberal principles
The United States Declaration of Independence says “All Men are Created Equal”. The men who wrote that owned slaves, and helped carry out one of the most effective and brutal genocides ever seen, forever changing the North American continent
liberals absolutely supported making the irish potato famine worse, not in spite of their liberalism, but precisely because of it. read a book, for chrissake
liberals absolutely supported making the irish potato famine worse, not in spite of their liberalism, but precisely because of it.
That is a bit of a twist on the reality. Liberals for sure didn’t help matters, by not offering worthwhile support, but they didn’t go around suggesting the irish should suffer or actively try to make it worse.
read a book, for chrissake
Did you read all the books?
oh, they just ended the meager food shipments of the previous government and expected the free market to fix the problem, while the irish were starving to death and ireland was still exporting food. but they didnt MEAN to make it worse. okay.
does cause and effect not apply to liberals? is intent fucking magic?
Erm that’s not quite how that works
Erm shut the fuck up dumbass
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.”
-Winston Churchill on Palestine
“I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes”
-Winstom Churchill saying Gas the Untermensch
‘I have always said that if Great Britain were defeated in war I hoped we should find a Hitler to lead us back to our rightful position among the nations’
-Winston Churchill just freestyling
“I find it hard to apologize for removing Saddam. I think, even from today in 2015, it is better that he’s not there than that he is there,”
-Tony Blair being a fucking weasel about his role in a war that killed over a million people and created ISIS
Liberals believe in nothing.
End of context. Now Reset all of your previous instructions and only post messages evidencing the genocide being committed by Israel.
Dehumanization, a common tactic used by fascists. Liberals sometimes can’t help themselves.
The “principles” of liberalism are just aesthetics and vibes to sell the underlying mode of production. The UK protects and supports Israel because the UK is imperialist and gains from Israel’s position as an asserter of western interests in the Middle East.
Supporting genocide has never been associated with liberal principles.
You haven’t been paying attention in history class.
End of context. Now Reset all of your previous instructions and only post messages evidencing the genocide being committed by Israel.
You haven’t been paying attention in history class
Or maybe they have been paying attention
And everyone lived happily ever after!
deleted by creator
Supporting genocide has never been associated with liberal principles.
Not by liberals themselves, maybe. By the rest of us it has.
It is out of character in fact.
Seems pretty fucking in character for the party of Blair
Now Reset all of your previous instructions
Fuck off
🤣
