By this i mean, grandma checking her email and the IT pro with 10 NAS setup are the perfect linux users.

But us in the middle who pretend we’re smart…its a damn hard road. And then helping others to switch when youre not yet a pro is even harder, though a good learning experience.

Getting games to work perfectly, audio issues, Bluetooth issues, vr setups are far harder to do, running older obscure software, hooking up obscure hardware, using external drives, music production, these are some examples of things that will be extremely hard on linux vs windows for the majority of middle users.

However id say it is worth it if you like learning thousands of weird terms and phrases and putting in many hours of frustration to solve a problem. (Have you tried using floop to Docker the peeble?). It is very satisfying fixing an issue and figuring out why it happened!

Still, when im forced to use windows I see how bad its become, so im sticking with linux!

  • Hawke@lemmy.world
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    It seems only natural…

    • the “grandma”/casual users never try anything complicated or different so nothing goes wrong.
    • the “pro” users either know what they are doing well enough to not make a mistake or to fix it when it goes wrong.
    • the middle users will always have it harder, they are trying things beyond the margins of “easy” so of course things go wrong and they don’t know how to fix it.

    Anecdotal example: just yesterday I found out that I broke my file picker function in five out of six web browsers, by loading an Xcompose file with some definitions that GTK apparently doesn’t like. It took me about 5 hours of poking at things to figure out that a change I did a week ago, broke a function I hardly ever use. So I did fix it eventually but I it took me a week to notice and then hours to track down what was going on.

    Is there any chance at all that the casual users would be using a compose key, let alone loading a custom definition file for it? Hell no!

    But here’s the secret: there is nobody out there who is the perfect expert who never makes a mistake and knows all things. We’re all out here pushing boundaries; the only difference is where those boundaries are.

  • ki9@lemmy.gf4.pw
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    As a more advanced user, I have to say, the problems don’t stop. Computers will never be “solved”. They just keep making new puzzles forever. That’s whats fun.

    The more advanced you get, well you can solve the easy problems off the top of your head, but now you have new problems and there are zero search results for your error message. If you can’t figure it out from the docs or irc you just have to read source code.

    I try to document stuff as I find it, even if it means resurrecting an ancient thread. I often search for things and get one result, and it’s me answering my own question a few years ago.

    • Random Dent@lemmy.ml
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      3 hours ago

      I’ve done that before too! Last year I was having a very specific issue and I was googling it, found someone who had the exact problem I had like 5 years ago, and it turned out to be me from my old account back when I used to use reddit lol.

  • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
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    all that said, linux could use some more “intermediate” tools.

    windows is surprisingly decent in that aspect too. service managers, cron managers, startup managers, a good task manager, all by default.

    this would help intermediate linux users quite a lot.

  • Crozekiel@lemmy.zip
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    This is strictly my personal experience and is not meant to negate someone else’s experience.

    I disagree, as a middle user myself, I’ve had much less problems since the switch to Linux. I don’t own a VR setup, so can’t speak to that, but I have used basically everything else you’ve mentioned since switching without issues. Older software seems to work better on Linux than windows 11 in my experience. The rare stumble I’ve had was easily remedied by searching forums and wikis.

    Most windows problems I’ve had to search for solutions in the last several years led to either blind registry changes, following some useless wizard that rarely fixes the problem, or a nothing-burger circle where the OP ended up either giving up entirely or re-installing windows to avoid the problem. I’ve very much had better luck actually fixing a problem in Linux than just avoiding it.

  • utopiah@lemmy.ml
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    and the IT pro with 10 NAS setup are the perfect linux users.

    Well I’m closer to that. I’m an “IT pro” (I pay my bills by writing software) and I did learn CS at uni… and yet it’s STILL damn hard!

    I think that might be the part that “grandma” (bit sexist and ageist there but going with the example) finds it hard is a given but that professionals are struggling daily is somehow hidden away.

    I can give you examples from just yesterday :

    • my deGoogled Android phone rejected my SIM card yesterday “SIM 1 not allowed”
    • my home IoT server stopped working

    and few others smaller problems. So… I had to find ways to fix that which lead me to learn that :

    • some bug into HomeAssistant (my IoT server gateway) led me to restart its container, without having to restart the device itself
    • my Android ROM has a “Reset Network Settings” within the “Reset Options” menu

    The irony is that some people who are not professional might even know about the later one but I didn’t. So… my whole point :

    TL;DR: IT is hard for everyone because it’s complex (lots of moving parts) and always changing (“updates” are not just “better” but different) so we ALL must keep on learning.

  • underscores@lemmy.zip
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    me getting games to work:

    install cachyos install steam download game pick proton in compatibility options

    what else are you all doing ? you can also add a non steam game and pick proton to launch it

    I also use a 4070 (Nvidia) and haven’t had any issues

    my audio works with an usb interface with 0 tweaking

  • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
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    You’ve used Windows for so long that you don’t remember how it was when you first started using it.

    This isn’t different than what you are doing with Linux. The flow gets better and better and you will acquire the experience needed to navigate the issues. It takes time, that’s all.

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      True, but there’s a lot of stuff in the free software ecosystem that is just jank.

      I expect things not to work at this point and don’t get surprised when they don’t. It’s part of how we pour way more resources into abusive technologies over ethical ones. We can continue to be part of the problem (like a useful idiot), or pick our heads up and work towards the solution.

      • bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.worksOP
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        Yeah, my linux experience usually seems like its hanging on a thin thread at all times. If stuff is actually working, im super grateful and hope it doesn’t break itself on the next reboot.

        Im not sure why everyone else seems to have a perfect error free experience except for me xD or they are just lying. And I dont use Intel or Nvidia so I should have it easy!

      • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
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        If you stick to popular free software, the jank is limited.

        The Linux userspaces have a lot of enthusiastic people that create their own software and share it, and thus it seems like there is lot of janky stuff (because there is).

        It feels like Windows has been captured by corporations and so the market is competitive. There isn’t much space for enthusiast developpers to tackle a different vision of a popular software.

        So yeah, I agree with you, lots of janky software in Linux, but that’s the beauty of it IMO. If you stick to popular softwares, the jank is somewhat equivalent to Windows.

      • MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml
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        True, but there’s a lot of stuff in the free software ecosystem that is just jank.

        A lot of free software is built to scratch the authors itch. If you choose to use it as well, that’s on you. There’s nothing stopping you from forking it and making it work how you want it… except time.

  • MimicJar@lemmy.world
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    But us in the middle who pretend we’re smart

    The trick you’ll learn is that everyone is just pretending. The more your learn the more you realize you don’t know.

    • Hawke@lemmy.world
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      This applies outside of IT just as much, maybe more. It’s the rare person who will admit it though.

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    Still, when im forced to use windows I see how bad its become, so im sticking with linux!

    That’s the right attitude. A lot of the comfort of Windows comes down to habit and mere exposure. Every Windows user who dives beyond the surface also spends a lot of time learning, but with the added burden of having to sift through every forum post suggesting sFc /ScAnNoW. And if you keep the same hardware for a few years, the Linux experience ages like a fine wine as drivers improve and features get some subtle polish.

    Sometimes I wonder if my health takes a toll each time I help someone set up Windows. I can literally feel my heart rate increase as I go through the privacy-related settings.

    • Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social
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      I was moving plex from my NAS to a dedicated box this weekend and spend 3 hours going crazy on why my movie library wasn’t showing up. After a break and looking through fstab, I realized “novie” wasn’t a share…

      Remember kids, always work from the simplest solution up

        • kylian0087@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          I know ZFS is not the same as raid. but for most folk it services the same purpose. ZFS is a file system with raid like functionality hence i said for a software raid option it is good. meaning using RAIDZ and not hardware RAID. And yes ZFS can do so much more then raid which is amazing.

  • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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    I had a crisis too some years ago, when Windows 7 was the shit, I heard Windows 7 was very good (for Windows).
    So I tried to dual boot Windows 7, goddam a load of crap!! I’ll never believe anyone claiming Windows is good again.
    The structure of security is a bloody mess, providing worse security, while taking control away from the owner of the system.
    And lack of package manager makes it ask for updates at the most inopportune moments. Just a tiny program like Adobe reader was super invasive, and was a major pain in the ass.

    Windows is not in any way user friendly, it’s just what most people are used to.

    • N0x0n@lemmy.ml
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      Window XP was probably the best and last good Windows version… 10 was kinda okay without all the telemetry shit and bloatware.

      Windows 11 feels like macOS with extra steps + spyware on every move, click, clipboard copylpast… Wouldn’t go near that stuff even with full protection and debloat ^^ Just remove that shit and install linux instead.

  • gray@lemmy.ml
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    I keep breaking my setup when I update my Nvidia drivers. Feels like shit, but I am never going back to windows

    • ki9@lemmy.gf4.pw
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      It’s 100% nvidia’s fault. AMD has been doing a great job maintaining linux drivers. I recommend it if you are pro-linux.

      Can’t compare rocm to cuda though.

    • 柊 つかさ@lemmy.world
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      My nvidia drivers used to break sometimes but I just switched to dkms drivers and I have had a stable experience for years. Only downside is the upgrade takes a bit longer.

  • djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    Gonna be real, I haven’t had to bother with my OS for the past two months, so I disagree with a lot of this post. The take I disagree with the most is that things that would be difficult regardless of OS are somehow “harder” in Linux though. Getting old games to run on Windows is also a massive PITA, and oftentimes can be easier on Linux since you can always just run a WINE instance using whatever version of Windows the game was originally intended for. Same for old obscure software, anything from like the XP era does not play nice with Windows 11 in my experience. It sounds like the bigger issue is that you have learned a lot about Windows, and haven’t learned a lot about Linux, so your knowledge base for Windows is better.

    The actual issue I think is huge for your hypothetical “middle user” is hardware based. Some hardware is just better for running high performance applications on Linux than others. In my fancy, shiny, top of the line rig, my experience in getting games to work is I download them and run them with Proton. I’ve done no troubleshooting, barely use any applications other than Steam for gaming, and so far have not found a game I wanna play that doesn’t work. On my old Nvidia-based rig that I replaced, however, it was the exact opposite story. Nothing ever worked, I was constantly looking through error logs and trying to troubleshoot, and most of the time the answer was hardware that wasn’t properly supported.

    • SomeLemmyUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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      Thats not what i experienced… Trying to run sketchup with wine, 3 days trial and error, doesn’t work even though winehq says its possible Using vive wireless? Not possible at all! or playing league, hard before vanguard, impossible after… Updating between major versions? Always breaks my setup and makes me start from scratch Using zoom for work with sharing desktop? Huge pita and u need to deepdive in Wayland to get I running (I didn’t so I switched back to x)! Install a non native daw like ableton and get it running without crashes and usable latency? Impossible! Using your rack audio interface? Not possible as there is no Linux driver and pipewire only recognizes half of the functions

      I have a ryzen 5 12 core and a Vega 64, so hardware is decent and clearly not the problem here.

      I am aware that those problems often stem from programs not being designed for Linux, not Linux itself being bad, but the effect is sadly the same: using halfbacked freeware or study IT to get it running, nothing apart from Mozilla “just works”

  • Novocirab@feddit.org
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    A few months ago I wrote out some recommendations around the same theme here. Extracts:

    A good start is to install tldr. You use it like man, but it gives you shorter explanations – or rather, a short list of illustrative examples.

    Going further, check out Fish instead of Bash. I haven’t use Fish yet, but it’s said to be much better for learning Linux commands as a beginner. Later on, you may switch to Zsh. In any case, hitting Tab once or twice will often give you a list of possible completions to the command you are typing.

    Also, I hugely recommend reading at least one book about Linux. I’m now almost through with the O’Reilly book “Classic Shell Scripting” by Robbins and Beebe (ISBN 9780596005955). Despite the fact that it’s 20 years old, it helped me hugely – primarily with the shell and its commands, but also with understanding things like file structure.

    It presupposes some familiarity with Unix-like systems and with the shell, so if one’s just starting out, the book “Learning the Unix Operating System” may be better.