I just got up from conversation with a couple of older black men, that I said “well I got to go back to work and start cracking the whip.” And it occurred to me then that it was probably a really insensitive stupid thing to say.
Sadly, it hadn’t occurred to me until it’s already said.
cracking the whip
I think this is a fantastic example of what you’re talking about.
On its face, “cracking the whip” doesn’t need to be seen as offensive. Humans have collectively spent far more time using whip cracks to motivate animals than fellow humans, I suspect.
However, the determination of offensive speech is not in the hands of the speaker, but rather in the reception by the listener. That is to say, you can have the purest of intentions but if someone is offended by what you say, no amount of explaining takes away the initial offense. And generally you don’t GET to do that explaining. Damage is done, and that person may then avoid you or already have a shifted opinion of you.
I’ve had to learn this lesson the hard way. And fortunately have had friends who were willing to tell me that I had offended them when I thought what I said was completely benign.
I hate how everybody else gets to judge whether or not someone’s speech is offensive, regardless of what someone intended
That’s just how humans are. It’s not just about words but actions too. If you get drunk and drive your vehicle and hit and kill someone you go to jail. You didn’t intend to kill anyone so why should you be held responsible? Sure intent matters but it’s not the only thing that matters.
If you get drunk and drive, you had the intention to do something you knew could result in someone being killed. The intent very much matters in determining responsibility, and it’s the reason you’d likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter, but not murder.
Though some people have been convicted of murder in such cases.
My point wasn’t that intent doesn’t matter, it’s that a lack of intent doesn’t mean you can get off. You didn’t intend to kill anyone but still get charged for killing them.
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That doesn’t mean a lack of intent will absolve you from crimes. If so things like negligent manslaughter wouldn’t exist a people wouldn’t be in jail for accidently killing someone.
The only thing I hate is the impatience with which some people act when something offends them.
I get that anger or frustration is the motivator but if this person who offended you is not just some random asshole, speak up and explain first. Maybe some people aren’t pieces of shit, they’re just repeating phrases they’ve heard a million times and never thought about.
Not everyone’s had that moment of realization that there is a ton of colloquial slang that is (or has been repurposed to be) a really fucked up dog whistle.
Yeah it sucks but also it’s both gut feelings and self defense against bad actors.
Being a person is hard and that’s one of the ways. But also we get to decide how we respond to it. Some things like OP’s example naturally feel “oh fuck yeah I shouldn’t’ve said that” other things leave a conflict of opinion.
Words can hurt. And intentions matter when we hurt people but they aren’t the only thing that matters. Someone hurt in a car crash caused by you driving poorly may decide that they don’t want to give you another chance to drive with them in the car and that’s their choice.
How we respond to accidentally hurting people though will speak volumes about us. Do we apologize and attempt to change, ever striving to be a more positive force in everyone’s lives? Or do we lash out or respond with apathy, even when third parties say we’re in the wrong? I know who I’m trying to be, and I hope others see the value in that person.
I watched a college professor asking a Korean if they ever considered the work “Nega” (you) could be construed as offensive to people. Like, bruh.
The Spanish community having to pick a new name for a color (as if the new one wouldn’t be used the same way).
Screw this racist comment! ;)
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There’s a 100% chance that you didn’t get the joke.
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And yet, you are.
However, the determination of offensive speech is not in the hands of the speaker, but rather in the reception by the listener.
Descriptively speaking, I think that it’s more complex than it looks like - the determination depends on the linguistic community, not just the listener.
Whether offense exists is more on the listener (or audience rather). Whether any action (a simple “sorry” or more severe) should be expected is the complicated part.
The offence existing or not can’t depend solely on the listener, because existence is an objective trait and feeling offended is subjective. Your parentheses get it though - it includes the audience (the linguistic community, not just the listener). I’ll use a silly example to show that.
Let us suppose that someone (“Bob”) got offended by your usage of the word “listener”, claiming that you’re insensitive towards people who communicate through sign languages, and since they’re mostly deaf that you would be ableist. (It’s insane troll logic, but bear with me.)
Bob can certainly feel offended by that. But that won’t change anything, if other people do not consider it offensive. At most they’ll tell Bob “you’re making shit up, touch grass” and call it a day.
The picture however would change if Bob got offended by something and people around him agreed with him.
Whether any action (a simple “sorry” or more severe) should be expected is the complicated part.
Both are complicated, I believe.
Maybe you’re right. I don’t know. I’m now thinking about someone going off on a racist tirade alone in the woods. I guess that’s offensive.
But with your example, if you are offended by “listener” then offense exists. The greater community advisory corrective action could be “no action required, don’t even say ‘sorry’ is you don’t want to”. What action is taken does not change the fact that I offended someone. There could be a social-sphere that actually comes down on the other side and says “we don’t use that word here”, I don’t know. But I wouldn’t feel right trying to argue about.
I want to be clear to anyone reading this, no I do not think there is or should be anything like a formal committee. Just the social-sphere you wish to inhabit.
I get what you’re saying, but nobody who says they are going to start cracking the whip is talking about training animals. Even if they were, that’s not an inoffensive metaphor, either. You’re either comparing subordinates to slaves or animals. You’re suggesting that physical violence, the threat of torture, is an appropriate motivator, or you wish it were. If that’s not what you’re saying, then you shouldn’t say that, even as an exaggeration or a joke.
It is an offensive metaphor. You may not offend everyone, but if you have offended someone, it’s not their fault you said something offensive. They didn’t choose to be offended, and made no determination about what you meant. You should say what you mean, clearly, and with intent. Carelessness is not an excuse for using offensive language.
nobody who says they are going to start cracking the whip is talking about training animals
Not training animals. But I’m pretty sure many of the people who use that phrase think they are talking about horse-drawn carriages, as per the etymology given by the American Heritage Dictionary.
I think that’s more likely what @TheRealKuni was referring to.
It’s still best to avoid it of course.
Cracking a whip near a horse makes it run in the direction you want at the speed you want. That’s training an animal. Employees or subordinates aren’t horses to be frightened with loud noises, either.
So, the sleigh driver who wastaking his family for an hour-long ride was training the animal? It was also used to make recalcitrant or reluctant work animals perform better while working. You could call that training, I suppose, but it’s a bit of a stretch. It also wasn’t uncommon for race horses to be whipped to make them go faster. I don’t know if it still is, it’s been far too long since I bothered to check anything horse race related. But cracking the whip was used for a very long time to get animals to work. Also people, which is the problem.
Whatever the context, you’re comparing people to animals or slaves. Which is better?
I was talking about history, backed by common knowledge which can be easily corroborated, and not very much my opinion about those acts, except the last sentence.
Also, people are animals. Perhaps you could use that as a reason to treat animals better instead of as an excuse to treat people worse.
You’re fucking with me, right?
Employees or subordinates aren’t horses to be frightened with loud noises, either.
Do you call the local animal shelter when it’s raining cats and dogs?
What the fuck are you talking about?
What the fuck are you talking about?
It just seemed you were taking an idiom literally.
I was discussing being offended by an idiom because of its connotations, but you’re talking about motivating employees with loud noises. This seems to me like you’re offended by the idiom’s denotation.
So, do you call the local animal shelter when it’s raining very hard, assuming literal cats and dogs are falling from the sky and need homes? :)
(Please don’t take any of that too seriously, I wasn’t trying to be malicious and life is far too short!)
I worry that I didn’t properly communicate my thoughts in my first post, since in your reply to me you seemed to think I was placing blame on the receiver of offensive speech.
I assure you, I’m not blaming anyone for being offended. I would hope that, as language and communication are both complicated and all of us are, quite literally, constantly learning to be better at it, some measure of grace might be extended all around as long as people operate in good faith.
If someone is genuinely offended by something I say, that is not their fault. It means I was careless in what I said, did not properly gauge my audience, or, far more often in my own life experience, spoke in ignorance. Like the time I made a “your mom” joke to a coworker whose mother had died when he was a child. I was ignorant of that fact, and so something this is obviously rude but intended to be playful was received in a way I had not anticipated.
In that circumstance, this coworker informed me and I apologized, and never again made a “your mom” joke to him. But at the same time, he understood that most people our age at the time had living mothers, and was therefore not angry with me. Grace was extended, because life is hard and it isn’t worth being upset when we can get along.
Another time I was speaking to a Jewish coworker and asked about her interpretation of the creation account in Genesis, and was then comparing it with the interpretation of my devout Christian parents. I was genuinely curious, but she later told me that it offended her that I so cavalierly talked about her holy text in a way that seemed to imply shared ownership. Perhaps she thought I was trying to evangelize (I was most certainly not).
To me, this exchange is still somewhat baffling to this day. Both religions read and interpret the Torah, surely she knows that fact already? But I still don’t blame her for being offended. That reaction wasn’t something she decided on. Instead it taught me to be a little more gentle in the way I talk to people about their religion until I know them better.
Circling back around, the idiom “crack the whip” is nearly always, at least in my experience, tongue in cheek. And is usually somewhat ironic: the person saying “I should go crack the whip” is also not working when they say it, after all. To me, it evokes a carriage driver who has become distracted talking to someone and realizing they should be driving the horses.
I fully comprehend that isn’t how everyone may view the idiom, and idioms by their inherently non-literal nature can be subject to broad interpretation. So that particular idiom I avoid using. My entire point was to say that this OP, asking for a list of offensive phrases, is taking an important step in learning to communicate better: they are realizing the onus is on them to avoid offending others.
Now, all of that said, there is equally a responsibility on my part as a listener to allow for grace when someone offends me if I have no reason to assume malice. That is to say, if some relatively thin person says around me, “Ugh, I’m so fat” while looking in a mirror, my initially emotional reaction is to be offended by their ostensible declaration that being fat is disgusting and that therefore they must find me, a much fatter person, so much more disgusting.
But what’s probably happening there is that this person is expressing their own insecurity. One that I share, which is why it offended me. Yes, there’s an outside chance that this person is trying to be a dick and insult me in a roundabout way, but people are usually too self-centered and merely insensitive rather than malicious. So it’s better for me to apply the best interpretation of what they’re expressing and go through life happier.
Anyway, I’m sorry if I offended you! :)
nobody who says they are going to start cracking the whip is talking about training animals.
It shouldnt be taken literally, its a metaphor, yes… Whats your point?
I gotta say I agree with you
Fuck you, grow thicker skin. Clear enough?
Crystal clear. You’re angry and want me to go away because it bothers you that I’ve pointed out how offensive certain language can be.
Feel free to hang around by all means. I am sure we agree on way more things than we disagree.
People need to toughen up while also learning how to respect each other.
It’s ironic when the people claiming that everyone else needs to toughen up or grow thicker skin because you don’t like being criticized.
You’re allowed to be offensive, and I’m allowed to tell you when you’re being offensive. If everyone thinks you’re an asshole, that’s not because everyone is too sensitive.
As long as we agree
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I too learned this the hard way, but with an image. Specifically, the “Shut Down Everything” meme. It’s an older meme and I used it in chat room with a much younger (Zoomer) crowd. The image has some resemblance to certain offensive depictions of Black people. I think it was accidental, given that it appears to be more an influence of MS Paint.
Someone got offended and talked to their manager. Unfortunately it was only months later that I got word through my manager. I would have appreciated an opportunity to offer to apologize to them face-to-face. I should have spotted the resemblance and not used the meme.
You do realize you’re asking for a racist-o-pedia, right?
Me and the boys going to work on the Big Book of Slurs
So, basically twitter…
Unfortunately there isn’t really a full list because that shit changes so often. Previously accepted phrases become slurs and yesterday’s slurs get reclaimed.
And it is locational. Something insensitive in the US might be insensitive here in Oz or over in Europe… Or might not.
That is how idiom works.
Yep. Can be things you wouldn’t even think about too. For example the word ‘spastic’ isn’t offensive in the US, but is deeply offensive in the UK, similar to the word ‘retard’
Both of those terms are offensive in the US, too. People that use it just choose to not value the input from those that they offend.
TIL, and I’m sorry to hear that :(
This is kind of tangential, but I don’t think I ever would have known that “poof” was an anti-gay slur in Britain if I hadn’t played Pokemon White. I wanted to.use that as a nickname and had to look up online why the game was preventing me.
Exactly.
The one I always tell about is a yank commedian who, on his first tour over here, lost everyone when he asked for his audience to bend over and pat each other on the fanny. In context, the joke would have made sense in America. Here in Oz, it was far more offensive than he thought it was, and the audience got upset with him, and you could see him realising he lost us. A whole lot of explaining needed doing, for both sides. Apparently he honestly thought he was talking about backsides. Poor sod. Thankfully bewildered American being lynched by pissed off audience wasn’t the main event that night…
Odd to think of a land where poof is not a slur. It is a slur here in Australia too.
Yesterday
Cursèd Saracens did spoil my day
Give us strength to crush those hordes, I pray
Oh, I believe in Huns to slay
Where I live Huns a slur for a protestant.
Everywhere it is a slur for people of mongolian descent.
Not in Northern Ireland a place where people from protestant and Catholic communities were killing each other for 30 years. Educate yourself before you try to correct others. The reason it’s used against Protestants is because of the reformation being started by a German. Also hun was used against Germans during WW2.
My grandfather, who passed away in the 90s, used to say “cotton pickers” for people that he meant as “jerks”. It took me until the 2010s that he was taking about black people. 🤦♂️
A lot of people post online that they love the phrase “cotton-headed ninny-muggins”.
But once you look at it thought this lens…boys I think this one’s not ok.
Isn’t that a line from “Elf”?
When I was younger, I thought the term “cracker” referred to white people being pale like a cracker that you’d eat. I did not realize until later that it was referring to whipping.
I’m 38 and I did not know this.
Whip cracker is actually probably false etymology, like a retcon of the origin that is popular, but actually not true.
Ok but “Cracker Barrel” still refers to the customers, right?
No. It refers to the answer a man gives when asked about their bathroom experience.
“Did you use your Cracker Barrel?”
Yeah, after I posted that, I did some searches and found lots of possible origins. I just remember being told the whip crack thing by a black friend of mine.
So you’re telling me Saltines aren’t part of my American heritage?
Oh, fuck. This would have been nice to know sooner.
To be fair, in Florida at least it referred primarily to the whips used to drive cattle, not anything slavery related.
Huh. Never heard of that before. But then, am Aussie and don’t know much yank idiom.
Speaking of stupid and insensitive, I was in my 20s before someone explained to me that to reference “jewing someone down” on price was not a great thing to say. It seems absurd. I’d just never seen it in writing or thought about it–it was an idiom, that’s it. You want to get a better price, so you jew them down. I guess I thought it was a homonym, if anything, but I didn’t really think about it, at all. Big-time facepalm moment when it clicked for me. Likewise for, “I got gypped.”
Those are the exact two examples for me as well! I thought I was alone in my idiocy!
Hell, “jewing someone down” was always a positive and admirable thing for me. Guess as a little kid I thought it was complementary to Jews and never thought about it again.
Not even going to say how long ago it was that I realized the reference to Gypsies. But it was a recent event, and I’m old.
How about “shyster”? I’m scared to ask…
“Gypsies” itself is also seen as a pejorative for the Romani.
Shyster has a reputation as being anti-semitic due to the assumption it is related to Shakespeare’s character Shylock. Historically it isnt, it refers to lawyers and the “shy” comes from German. It’s literally shitters.
Sort of like the word niggardly.
Interesting, so it’s a Yiddish variant of Scheißer?
I don’t think Jews were involved at all, which is another part of what makes it odd that it’s sometimes offensive. There is a similar British slang word, and Germans also immigrated to New York where it is thought to have originated in the prisons.
How about “shyster”? I’m scared to ask…
It does have that certain feel about it.
My family always pronounced it “chewing them down,” so I was surprised to see it written the first time. I was probably in college.
I thought it was “chewing” too. It’s not a common religion here, and the two words are not homophones with our accent.
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I’m a Linux user and love some good rices. But I’ve no idea what “ricing” comes from. Why is it offensive?
Rice rocket was a term used for modified Japanese cars, and ricing your car meant turning it into a rice rocket.
Oh… I had assumed it was like an acronym for some tech thing
Nah, just subtle racism
I thought “ricing” meant submerging your stuff in rice to get the moisture out to stop water damage.
Slang can mean different things, depending on context
What! No one’s ever told me that before!
I’m a Linux user and love some good rices. But I’ve no idea what “ricing” comes from. Why is it offensive?
I believe it is racist slang that emerged in the 90s with the advent of cheap japanese and korean cars that were easily customizable (civics, accuras, etc…). Throw a turbo and a loud exhaust, and bam, now its a rice burner. These were prevalent in Asian immigrant communities, but also other places.
It basically meant like, cheap, but also very fast car, of Asian origin.
There’s an older form that goes back to at least the 1970s when fuel efficient Japanese cars started to become popular in the US: “Rice burners.”
There was some made-in-America angst at the time because of the oil crisis, coupled with some quality issues that made these cars more appealing. The phrase was definitely used pejoratively. I can remember my dad muttering about it well into the '80s.
Why is it offensive?
It would probably be like calling Beemers and Mercedes bratwvrst-mobiles.
I mean, that does sound tasty.
You completely missed an opporitunity for kraut-cars.
I know some people that refer to Japanese motorcycles, mostly “crotch-rockets,” as ricers.
The only people I know who say that are in fact Japanese, but I agree it is a racist term.
Racist slang against Asians, think “beaners” for Hispanics.
Sort of an insult to beans and rice, two of the greatest categories of food, to make slurs of them, too.
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I think one of the Lemmy comms for it changed their sidebar and posts to remove that a few months ago
I remember in my 20s the phrase “indian giver” coming out of my mouth. I hadn’t used that phrase since I was a kid of 10 years old or so.
I immediately realized that I should never say that shit again. Adult me realized it is a horrible thing to say but as a kid I just thought it meant you gave and asked for it back. I had much more context as an adult.
Most of the time I think before I speak, but not always.
Yeah, that’s called Welshing.
Oh god I went to a public school rear a native reserve, it was always insane to me to see how many times the faculty referred to things as ‘Indian’
Ex. we had an Indian meal day that i don’t think was either east India nor native american inspired
American Indians prefer to be called Indian, not Native American.
Kinda broad statement considering some do but some are offended by it.
Of course its entirely incorrect given they aren’t in India, so it seems obvious not to call them indian (shit even some actual east Indians are offended by it, especially cause now they need to be called east indians)
and more anecdotally all indigenous people I’ve met couldn’t careless what theyre called down to calling themselves ‘indjiuns’
@Sethayy the existence of people not offended by something prejudiced always seems to be dragged out as a justification for that prejudice.
If some people being offended isn’t reason enough not to say something, then it stands to reason that some people not being offended isn’t a reason why it’s okay.
If it is, then there are definitely people who are offended.
Okay, but what if they like being called indian as opposed to native american? Now you’re being offensive to those people. It’s kind of like that ridiculous latinx term that some PC people have being pushing for a few years now, I’m yet to meet anyone thay likes being called that as opposed to just latino/latina.
If you’re in doubt what to call someone, just ask, don’t assume.
Excellent! So let’s just call them what country they live in, which isn’t India (nor even close to India)
My wife works on reservations. I haven’t heard of any of the tribes she works with being fine with being called Native American. They have their own government organization called the Bureau of Indian Affairs, it seems pretty clear that they prefer that term.
Yes great! But they don’t live in India :( So it’s pretty hard to call them indians
Not really. If you’re struggling with it it’s a you problem (and probably partially racism to boot). This isn’t a hard concept. Mexicans are Americans, Canadians are Americans, Peruvians are Americans, even though none of them live in the USA. Just because we (white people) decided to call two locations India doesn’t mean that only one group gets that name. That’s idiotic.
This is halarious, youre definitely american aren’t you?
Canadians aren’t in america eh? Absolutely no classification we can think of, perhaps a continent or 2 that could describe let’s say a north and south “america” of some sort?
Id encourage you to try and find another true analogy though, and you’ll see it doesnt exist - cause everywhere else’s name is based on where it is
also I gotta edit to add this, I’d love to see where you perceive racism in my comment, just as a readers exercise
I hear just ‘natives’ more often. That reminds me though of this girl I knew who was just pissed about the term “African American”, saying “I ain’t got nothin to do with Africa! I’m Black!”.
You’re referring to Americans with heritage in the Indian subcontinent, right?
They are not, and what they said is broadly correct, but of course individuals vary.
No I’m not. My wife works on reservations. American Indians prefer to be called Indians, not Native Americans.
And Indian cuts. I realized it was racist when I heard the next generation calling them Chinese cuts.
Or Indian sunburns. Or sitting Indian style.
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jumping off point
Woah there, corporate informs me this is insensitive to Lemmings
Lemmy HR will be in touch
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Is this Grok output?
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The two that really make me wince are “Indian giver” and the related “Indian summer” and of course calling hooch “firewater” isn’t great either.
I always thought “Indian summer” sounded very poetic, maybe related to the climate of the Indian subcontinent.
But it’s just garden variety American racism?
That’s so disappointing!Does anyone know more about the etymology?
Indian summer (n.)
“spell of warm, dry, hazy weather after the first frost” (happening anywhere from mid-September to nearly December, according to location), 1774, North American English (also used in eastern Canada), perhaps so called because it was first noted in regions then still inhabited by Indians, in the upper Mississippi valley west of the Appalachians, or because the Indians first described it to the Europeans. No evidence connects it with the color of fall leaves, or to a season of renewed Indian attacks on settlements due to renewed warm weather (a widespread explanation dating at least to the 1820s).
Source: Etymonline
That’s not so bad!
I followed up the etymology of “zipper head” above so I was prepared for waaaaaaaaay worse.
That’s so interesting. Like @vzq I had the wrong sense of the word “Indian” - I thought it was something the British came up with after they colonized India.
Well, and specifically, it’s related to the concept of an Indian giver: The warm weather is “taken back” and impermanent.
Not so much an etymology, but how it was used in pop culture:
Our local paper used to publish a cartoon and poem every fall. The piece was called Injun Summer, and it was printed every October from 1907-1992.
It’s very much a relic of its era, which is to say “it was weird; really fucking weird.” The image is lovely. The text is an old man telling a young boy a totally made up story. It’s folksy, wistful and nostalgic. It talks about the past and how native spirits (literally ghosts) return to the land each fall. It’s also written in the vernacular of what an old man in 1907 might sound like.
Personally, I don’t think the complaints about racism were what caused them to stop printing it. I think it was the weirdness that just didn’t appeal to anyone under the age of 50 (in 1992!).
The fist link shows the image with text. The second shows how it would have looked in print.
http://www.sewwug.org/images/injun_summer_2.pdf
https://drloihjournal.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-history-of-john-t-mccutcheons-1907.html
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Idk about that. I’ve met “Native Americans” who prefer the term Indian over Native American.
That’s pretty much all American Indians. Their governmental orgs literally have Indian in their name. My wife does most of her work on a reservation and they all want to be called Indian, not Native American
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You can still be called Indian, there’s no reason they get a monopoly on the name… Just like people call people from USA “Americans” even though that literally applies to 35 countries, you can still call canadians “americans” or peruvians “americans”. Context clues give people a lot of information, you don’t need to always be explicit. You can also do exactly what I did above and specify “American Indian”, which clearly gave you enough information to proceed to make the comment you did…
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so why should Native Americans be called “Indians”
Because that is what they were primarily called for hundreds of years, and what many still prefer to be called today.
Note that the American Indian Movement, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Indian reservations, etc all still use the term.
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy
Ever heard of […] Canadian Wet’suwet’en or other people being called “Indians”?
It’s been changing there much quicker than in the US, but, yes. And Canada’s Indian Act is still in force (and still called that) today.
Indian burn
Is that the same as a “Chinese Burn” where you twist someones arm-skin?
Yup it’s the same
Indian* here, and I don’t know anyone offended by Indian summer.
*It says Indian on my ID.
Could you explain the firewater one?
It’s sort-of an antique trope whose main thrust is implying Native cultures are backward and unworldly because they don’t have distilleries (though, point in fact, some of them did ferment alcohol).
Firewater and other drinking stereotypes were about the myth of Native Americans all being raging alcoholics, which are as racist as saying black people are inherently violent or Jewish people inherently coveting money.
The alcohol abuse rates of Native Americans aligns with poverty issues, just like everyone else.
I honestly had no idea until now that firewater had anything to do with Native Americans. I just thought it was a term for alcohol, and don’t use it myself anyway.
Never heard it that way. It is a calque of a Native American name from the northern plains. I always thought a white person using it was offensive due to negative stereotypes about native Americans and drinking (and also mocking somewhat, like walking about saying “how” or speaking pidgin).
Ok I’ve thought about it a bit and I need to know. What’s wrong with Indian summer?
It’s related to the concept of an “Indian giver”: the warm weather seems like a gift, but is taken back.
I have never heard it described that way. It’s the last warm weather of the year before winter. It was something to look forward to.
I’ve never heard of it used with that connotation. Even the most PC people I know use the phrase. Just because it uses the word “Indian” doesn’t automatically make it a pejorative. Some native Americans/first people call themselves Indian.
Most Natives call themself “Indian”. You’ve misunderstood my objection if you think that’s the problem.
The misunderstanding of your objection comes from the fact that I’ve just never heard of it in the context of “giving good weather and taking it away” as in “Indian giver”. The fact that they both have the word Indian the only connection I can make to what you’re saying. The only references I can find to a pejorative origin is in articles from years ago saying that the phrase possibly needs to be changed because of possible negative origins. Obviously culture hasn’t decided it’s necessary to change the phrase (yet). The fact that it’s used as a positive metaphor for non-weather things should be considered too.
Yes, but it still reeks of colonial insensitivity when a white person says it. Non-indigenous Americans should have replaced that word with Native by now.
It originally referred to a specific meteorological phenomenom that occurs in North America consisting of late warm weather that native tribes would take advantage of to hunt. It’s definition has become more general, and it’s taken the place of similar phenomena around the world, but it’s not related to the concept of taking gifts back.
Oof. At work we currently have a project for words deemed insensitive. For the most part I think it’s worthy, but some things are overboard. The project group cast a very wide net, ignoring context and etymology. My biggest disagreement is over “black” and “white”.
Take “black box” and “white box” for types of testing. These are based merely on the properties of light. I have serious doubts about anyone ever having felt excluded by their use. And yet, we’re wasting time coming up with non-standard nomenclature to satisfy this supposed slight. There’s a whole laundry list of words like this.
You should call them “box that absorbs all light” and “box that absorbs no light” you fucking racist
I’m still mad about git master
Master as in “the master copy”
And they went and broke a bunch of tools and workflows to change it
Yeah, master has a few uses like this. Master bedrooms came about in the 20th century and had nothing to do with slavery. Then there is master in a pupil setting, though that is fairly uncommon in the US anyway. It’s more of a European/UK thing I think.
Again, I have nothing against changing things that are genuinely problematic. I just have a problem with busy work that is being demanded for items that aren’t actually offensive.
phrases that are stupid
We haven’t invented a storage big enough for that yet
About the others, there are some obvious ones but other than that it mostly depends on context and culture. Some pointed the ricing thing for Linux, but I don’t think anyone in the community, myself included, thought about Asian ppl when calling themselves a ricer; nor I think it’s racist, so again: aside for obvious insults or widely known slurs, it basically falls back to context
Odds are that such a list won’t ever exist. Insensitivity and bias depend on meaning, and meaning depends on context. As such, we [people in general] need to pay attention to what we’re saying, and to whom, in to avoid both things. No easy way.
It’s not quite what you’re looking for, but there’s this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs
To add to this:
List of lists of pejorative terms for people
It includes lists for men, women, lgbt+, disability, age, ethnicity, religion, location. The severity of the terms is varying and arguably location-dependent.
For example, while I (probably) wouldn’t use the word “wanker” in a formal professional large meeting in my current workplace without it being somehow contextual, almost no Australian or New Zealander in that company would blink an eye if I said it casually at lunch. But when I worked in the education sector I used the personal rule “if I don’t want it written on my gravestone, I shouldn’t say it”, because teachers have subsonic and lightning-fast swearing detection reflexes, even when they’re not at school.
My mother-in-law used to call everyone “zipper-heads” until someone pointed out that it’s a slur against Koreans (and a particularly graphic one at that).
In school there was a group of mostly white friends that had a Asian kid in their friends group. His nickname was Nip. I honestly didn’t know his real name as another was never used. It was a few years before I realized the connotation that was there once I started studying history. Not sure if it was a parent or where it came from but most of us at the time had no idea how bad it was. It was just his name and he used it too.
Then I think of my church going father. One of the kindest men I knew. Never had a bad thing to say about anyone unless it was personal thing based on a issue first hand.
Race wasn’t on his mind at all. Being from the westcoast in a remote wilderness area most of the demographic was white and native with very few in those days what were called east Indians and Asians mixed in. More the exception if at all.
He worked for a logging outfit and towards the end of his career he was a logging road grader operator. I recall going down a road that he maintained in a Jeep with him. As I was navigating this rough road the logging trucks pounded constantly he told me to watch out for this large rock that was below the surface. Just the head of the rock was sticking up. He called them " the N word- heads" I was shocked. I knew he wasn’t racist and was friends with the only black church member in town but the word just came out of this mouth as easily as any other word.
I asked him why he called it that, he said that’s just what they were called. He didn’t continue after that day with me as I don’t think he thought about it until our conversation.
In some ways I did equate this to the numerous white kids I knew singing the NWA lyrics in school despite not even seeing a black kid before but this was in the 90s. I can still hear those lyrics as I type this.
Now this isn’t to say kids were not nasty, as they were. There were several unkind things used when talking about the native kids that made up to half the school population and more of that where my family lived.
Back to my grandfather’s time bonds were formed with the local native bands and friends were made but I’m sure the languaged used at times like “Indian giver” wasn’t connected to the real reality.
I do fear as I get older I’m falling into one of these traps with gender and identity words. I think as we get older and comfortable with our understanding of the world we have figured out, some aren’t really willing to figure out more.
Despite interacting and having friends from the older local gay community I’ve not been exposed to anyone that introduces themselves with their name and then their pronouns.
I’m not sure if we can just call everyone “them” or “they” without offending people? Feels like a good starting place but I’ve not learned yet it this is as bad as the N-word?
Here in Australia I am surrounded by people of many different genders, and so far have not caused complaint by using they/them for everyone, regardless of gender, whether cis or trans. Plenty of others do the same, and they tend to be people wearing the rainbow flag, rather than the insensitive.
It is always best to ask and try to remember the pronouns, but often it is not possible at the time, and it is better to err on the side of caution when you don’t know yet what they use. Eg: As a female, I do prefer she/her, but if someone didn’t know that, then I would still prefer they/them to being persistently referred to as he/him. Males likely have a similar dislike of being referred to with the wrong pronouns, but they/them encompasses everyone in common Australian English (eg “whoever left their jumper behind, they need to go pick it up from the office”) so seems the best compromise till a conversation can happen.
Great tips. I’ve for years referred to most people at work as hey guys (males and female) and then ladies when it was a older group of them in a department. Orientation was never really apart of the discussion for any of us. If taking about people at home it was my husband, wife, gf, bf, partner. Didn’t really get much deeper than that.
It would certainly be more convenient if they/them became a generic pronoun for everyone regardless of gender. But at the moment it’s not nessararily polite to use it that way in all circumstances. There are people that only use gendered pronouns to refer to themselves, to the exclusion of neutral pronouns like they/them. Generally if there’s any uncertainty about someone else’s preferred pronouns you can just ask. If you wanna skirt around it you can introduce yourself including your pronouns which will give others a safe opportunity to do the same. Messing up someones pronouns can be embarrassing but it’s not the same as dropping a slur. (Though it can still be very hurtful to those involved.)
How?
How is it a slur, you mean?
“Used by soldiers during the Korean and Vietnam Wars; multiple hypotheses exist as to the specific origin. One is that if an East Asian person were shot in the middle of the forehead with a machine gun, the head would split as if being unzipped; another, that the appearance of tire tracks on a body having been run over by a military Jeep or that of tank tracks resembled a zipper.”
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/zipperheadJesus fucking Christ, I assumed it was a “hurr durr narrow eyes” racist thing, what you’ve said/linked is way worse
Koreans all have zippers on their heads. They used to have buttons, but that changed in the early 1950s.
