I don’t blame them for feeling that way. If I see anyone using that shitty flag on their house, their shirt, their car, anywhere, I automatically presume they are a close minded racist cunt.
In Spanish, “café” if just that, coffee. But it was also used as “Camaradas Arriba Falange Española”. The Spanish flag is just the official flag… except when it has an Osborne bull in it or the dictatorship eagle.
You’d be surprised, I’ve been called a Nazi for saying that just maybe, the Asian with 88 in their username is not a secret white supremacist (especially considering Chinese consider 8 auspicious, more so multiples of it)
I don’t really use the 👌 gesture except from when I’m in China because they seem to recognise that one more than a thumbs up. As for 14 and 88, I was a 14 year old once but not quite 88. I don’t know what you’re getting at. I know the Chinese also use 88 as a representative of marriage… Along with 999 meaning something and I think I saw a 666 in China as well.
Are you accusing me of antisemitism because I’m saying that flying the Cross of St George which has been recognised as a banner of England for Centuries isn’t in fact racism?
You obviously did. “OK means White Power” was a practical joke established at 4chan (well, where else could it be?). Unsurprisingly, many people can’t tell the difference between troll jokes and reality these days.
But please continue spreading the joke.
edit: Editing your comment after someone has replied. Classic. I’ll end this discussion here.
I’m not sure if this is serious or not. Yes. It started as a joke. What’s your point? Its since been adopted as a dog whistle precisely so dumbasses like you will do the work of right-wingers for them
The people who can’t tell the difference are the ones who use it without intending it to be a joke. 4chan “jokes” leak into the real world now, without being jokes.
Yes but that doesn’t matter does it. Because it’s not been used to signal patriotism it’s been used to signal to the rest of the world that there are racist arse wipe
From what I heard, if you fly it you’re a racist and if you deny you are a racist you are just lying because we know you are a racist because you are flying st George’s cross because everyone who flies st George’s cross is a racist. Bit circular reasoning.
I think you’re missing the nuance here, flying the flag alone doesn’t make you a racist, but if it’s become culturally associated with racism then it’s a data-point that can build up that picture.
It changed because the statement people hung the flag for decades is entirely recent history. Anyone over 50 knows it is not the case,
It is true of the union jack. Although since Victorian times not hugely so and often seen as tacky. But the St Georges flag dropped from use before the 1980s.
The reason is pretty clear. From about the mid 1800 most major English political parties have been unionist. It is a part of the Tory party name. But all 3 major parties and most smaller parties in England have been unionist.
We have no major England separation party. Whereas the other 3 nations all have such parties. Calls for England as an independent nation. Have never had a majority or even significant following.
As such the flag of England dropped out of use in the mid 1800s. As the main parties were successfully pushing the Union Jack as the main flag for England. In an attempt to diminish the separation parties of other nations. And no vocal group in the nation of England was opposing the lose.
As such when the National Front. Then BNP etc etc started to use the St Georges flag as a call to remove all non white from the UK. Opposition was very much directed at the ideals. Not the use of a flag few felt a link to.
Even now. Few have any real link to England as a separate nation. Just no real opposition to the flag any more then a link to it. It is seen by the vaste majority. More as the harm created by multiple negative party affiliations. Then as some national symbol of the English.
I’ve learned to be highly skeptical of patriotism in general, because it’s a fertile breeding ground for racism and fascism.
My reasoning being that, except in very few cases, those flying the flag had no hand in them being whatever nationality they are flying the flag of. They were simply born there. Thus any pride they take in the accomplishments of that nation is completely unearned, again with very few exceptions.
This unearned pride often leads to them taking personal offence at critique of “their” nation, even if it’s warranted.
Additionally their perception of what that nation is and represents is often anchored in the past, in the best case, or in euphemised half-truths and outright fabrications, in the worst case. This results in them acting as either a conservative force, in that best case, or start slipping into fascism. Because that’s what happens when you believe your country is perfect, can do no wrong and everything would be much better if everyone were just like you.
Then stand up and oppose it being used as an anti immigration symbol. Because after the BNP copted it. Any org using it as a sign opposing immigration. Is very clearly an obviously attempting to use that history to scare. Not as a sign patriot ideals.
What do you propose I do? I’m very not anti-immigration. I’m not pro immigration but I’m anti-anti-immigration. I think people should be able to come here with good reason and/or if it’s mutually beneficial
I raised some pride flags next to the flags around my area. It really kills the racist message. Somebody else has also gone round attaching a “No hate” sign to the bottoms of every flagged lamppost.
I’m so sick of the inability to speak like a human online. The way you’re being spoken to for acting like a well adjusted adult is actually embarrassing for this community.
Exactly what I said. Oppose the use of the flag as a intent to scare immigrants.
While making reasoned and rational arguments for and against different immigration policies.
Of course the above is as unbiased as it can be.
But as someone with more left of centre ideals.
It’s not complex. As a nation we have always depended on immigration. Angle Celts and Jutes immigrated to this nation before the flooding of dogger bank some 12k years ago. Much as in the rest of the world. Excluding the plains of Kenya. No human is entirely native to any one nation. Mixing of cultures and people has always advantages the human race.
But the right wing is very much being intentional in their use of other to distract the people. It is a key goal of fasism.
The rights use of the flag as an element of fear. Is both intentional and a long known core element of fascist ideology.( Ultra nationalism and the selectionof a enemy class. ). intended to control opposition to the elite.
Absolutely nothing the right claim as an issue to the UK is the fault or responsibility of immigration.
While all the issues that drive people to accept such claims. Are the result of intentional reductions in rights and equality lead by 50 plus years of right of centre governments.
As bad as godwins law can be. Their is a reason so many of the rights actions match 1930 Germany.
It’s not complex. As a nation we have always depended on immigration.
That’s an Americanism. Immigration from one country to another is generally accepted, eg, between european countries. The issues are people “fleeing war” from Afghanistan and where do they settle. Pakistan? No. Turkiye? No. They have to make it to the UK for some strange reason.
I’m actually pro letting Afghans in who helped our nation and may face persecution under the taliban. The people coming in on small boats aren’t honest people. The honest people migrate legally as they respect our laws.
For starters there is absolutely no law or history where war refugees are required to settle in the first safe nation. Much the opposite the Geneva convention makes it illegal to use access or distance to limit the movement of refugees. This is specifically their as forcing nations nearest a war zone to accept refugees would increase the odds of the war spreading into their borders.
As for the difference between EU and refugees. Given the whole Brexit history that is an utterly dumb complaint. It has absolutely no marit in this debate as the flag was specifically used to argue against all type of immigration in recent times.
The law should be changed because you have fallen for right wing bull crap.
The law was created in the 1950s with the UK as a major proponent of that law. Yet we have had 0 wars on UK soil since then.
Where as nations bordering wars have had multiple wars expand into their territory as refugees run to escape. Seriously, you seem totally unable to base any of your arguments on facts or logic. But just emotional rubbish pushed by right wing lies and folks fighting for fascism.
It depends on the context doesn’t it. Lots of people will fly the England flag or wear an England shirt during a football tournament, and all they mean by that is “I support the England team” without a further political meaning. But the meaning of the current flag-flying from lamp posts seems to essentially be “we don’t want immigrants in the UK” which can make the flags intimidating (which is probably the exact intention).
Here’s another example of context changing meaning. Churchill used to give a two-fingered salute (see picture below), and his intended meaning of that salute was that it was a “V” for “victory” in WW2. But of course these days, that same outwards two-fingered salute means “fuck off”. Context changes the meaning.
Fair enough, but according to a couple of sites that Wikipedia refers to, Churchill originally didn’t know that the outward facing gesture was rude until he was told about it. If true then I guess his gesture was intended to mean “here is a V for victory” instead of “fuck off you lot” or “fuck the Germans”.
Is it about immigrants in general though or the people trying to game the system by pretending to be refugees, entering via the english channel.
Churchill’s “V for Victory” was flipping the germans off.
I’ve been to England a few times and saw people and buildings flying St George’s cross before this crisis, also had seen it used online in emoji form in bios, etc.
Very few people are gaming the system, but the ones that are won’t be caught because asylum seekers aren’t having their claims processed.
If this was your genuinely held concern you should be pushing for the government to allocate the resources to properly vet asylum claims and get all of these people processed appropriately.
I suspect you wouldn’t like that solution though because in the end it will likely remove less than a percent or two of asylum seekers
39% (43,600) of asylum seekers arrived on a small boat and a further 11% (12,100) entered through other irregular routes (on lorries, shipping containers, or without relevant documentation)
55,700 people with no regard for the law or nation entering during 2025 alone is deeply troubling.
Neither of the things you just said prevent someone from seeing asylum. It’s the UK government that has no regard for the law, they have a duty to process these claims as signatories of the UN convention on the rights of refugees.
Hey, you’re that same bozo who was trying to tell me he didn’t know 14 88 was a dog whistle earlier, I wonder if your opinions on this are fact based and well researched…
The UK government can not like these people as much as it wants, it doesn’t make their asylum claims illegal
I think you’ve banged the nail on the head - that’s why people are annoyed. It SHOULD prevent them from gaining asylum. The law is outdated and it’s funding a people smuggling industry. Every claim where the seeker came through from a safe country such as France should be rejected immediately. They’re not refugees. The asylum law is for refugees. Australia was able to solve it and we almost had it with the (albeit overpriced) Rwanda policy.
Before I get assumed to be a racist, I actually think the UK law to immigrate legally is too strict. The thresholds are too high and requiring one for a british citizen with non british spouse or children is borderline racism.
British citizens don’t require anything to immigrate whether they have a spouse or child or where the spouse, child, lack of spouse or lack of child are from.
Wether it shouldn’t or shouldn’t is immaterial to this conversation. To follow both UK and international law all these asylum claims need to be processed.
If showing up on a boat disqualified you, the Tories would be chomping at the bit to process them and turf them.
The things your saying all sound lovely and in a perfect world of it was like that we might agree that it was better.
There’s no point carrying on this conversation if you’re going to continue to claim that people arriving on small boats and other irregular means are illegal
Yes, but the thing is, people just don’t fly it here for no reason.
Unlike the USA, where it was so ridiculous that I played a game with myself called “Turn around and there’ll always be a flag somewhere in front of me” (it really is that insane, their level of nationalism/exceptionalism disguised as patriotism is wild),
…here the flag may be flown for patriotic events (e.g. World Cup), or flown by official institutions, but 99.99% of regular people would never consider flying it for any other reason, and it’s very rarely seen overall. This is normal.
National flags are generally meant to indicate nationality outside of one’s own borders to others around you (e.g. an embassy in a foreign land, or ships at sea). They’re not at all useful on home soil, so why bother flying one?
So, yes, it’s our flag (though not the version people fly that says ENGLAND in big letters in the middle - that’s just stupid). But the people that fly it are almost always bigots and weirdos that you want to stay away from, especially these days.
National flags are generally meant to indicate nationality outside of one’s own borders to others around you (e.g. an embassy in a foreign land, or ships at sea). They’re not at all useful on home soil, so why bother flying one?
This is blinkered. National flags are a symbol of the nation so they are useful for that purpose. Why are they flown at sporting events? Because people want to display their support. Displaying your support, or pride, at other times, doesn’t automatically mean you have some other agenda going on.
I think you should be able to see the contradiction here with how the union jack and the scottish and welsh flags are seen. I bet you don’t see them in the same way, because they’re not used in the same way - so this has nothing to do with “they’re not useful, so when they are used, it’s for bad reasons”; it has everything to do with symbols as language, and the meaning they have for us. And those meanings are inherently ambiguous.
There’s a lot of people confidently declaring what other people think on the basis of one thing that they do. I am always suspicious of that, and think everyone should be, because it’s really easy to fall into thinking that, since I don’t feel the need to fly a flag, everyone who does so must be fundamentally different. They must subscribe to this belief that would cause flag-flying - and every person you see flying the flag at a far-right rally confirms your bias. Every person involved in flag-flying who is interviewed and says they aren’t racist is lying, because their reasoning sounds hollow to you because it doesn’t motivate you to follow suit and fly a flag yourself.
But besides that, why shouldn’t a flag serve as a unifying symbol, instead of a divisive one? Why shouldn’t the English flag be one that immigrants feel proud to fly alongside the flags of their own backgrounds? The left always seems to give up every symbol as soon as the (far) right start using it, which hands over the power in every single symbol to them without a fight.
I see our national flag 🇬🇧 all of the time. There are a few around the house, some on apparel, some in the form of actual flags such as behind the photograph of the King and the Queen. In some places the council or volunteers put them on the lampposts every summer and people often fly them from their houses. We also have a flag box filled with flags for special occasions. It’s also incorporated in our instance logo and the logos of several communities, including this one.
I remember during the royal wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, people put up UK flags and USA flags on lampposts in an alternating fashion.
Unfortunately I’ve seen this happen before, in Spain.
The national flag of Spain, when used by an individual, rarely ever represents “I love Spain and all that it entails” but rather “I have right-wing views, I only accept the catholic religion, gays aren’t natural, and immigrants should go back to their own countries”.
I don’t know if it can be taken back to just be the national flag, but if it can, Spain hasn’t managed to achieve it in the 20 years since it devolved into a narrow political symbol.
It is still a religious symbol. I was in China a while ago and saw quite a few swastikas in places. Generally they aren’t black, 45° and on a white circle with a red field and grafitti’d on a wall. That’s how you know when someone is a nazi. Someone flying their national flag from their house is quite normal behaviour. I’ve done it before.
St George’s cross has always been generally seen as a flag of St George. Georgia uses a similar one and there have been other depictions of the Agnus Dei where it’s used as a “Victory” flag. If Kooper’s Kustom Kreations predated the KKK, it would also make sense. I doubt in this context that it did.
In England if there isn’t a national sporting event on and there is a st George’s crosshanging in your window there is a much better chance it means your primary hobby is skulling pints and harassing brown people at the pub with your mates than it meaning you’re just a huge fan of English heritage.
The UK has a flag that encompasses all the nations of the UK and hasn’t been co-opted as a hate symbol, the union flag. If you were wanting to show national pride just for the sake of it, it’s likely you’d fly that.
Yes. None of these are hard and fast rules, no, not everyone flying a st George’s cross is a nazi.
But maybe take it from the multiple people in this thread who live in England telling you what we all know this symbol to mean in certain contexts instead of trying to play some academic game
We shouldn’t assume someone is racist for flying St George’s cross or criticise people for flying the flag itself. Instead we should criticise racism at the core instead of dancing around low hanging grapes. Such as the US puppet nigel farage
You can do whatever the hell you want. You’re just describing a world it would be nice to be in. That isn’t our world and you’re offering nothing about how to get there. But you’re VERY sure we should only be mean to racists once we get it signed in triplicate by the asshole police that they are indeed officially assholes
I don’t blame them for feeling that way. If I see anyone using that shitty flag on their house, their shirt, their car, anywhere, I automatically presume they are a close minded racist cunt.
Their house usually stinks and has a front garden covered in dog shit.
Source: I also have to go into these people’s houses.
It’s the national flag of England.
Both statements are correct.
It is the national flag of England. It’s also been co-optes by the right as a dog whistle
The ok sign is " just" a common hand sign
14 and 88 are just numbers
Shitheels turned this flag into a hate symbol.
Don’t blame normal people for not wanting to fly it now and assuming the worst if you do
In Spanish, “café” if just that, coffee. But it was also used as “Camaradas Arriba Falange Española”. The Spanish flag is just the official flag… except when it has an Osborne bull in it or the dictatorship eagle.
I didn’t know that, thank you
Reminder that most of this is very local, and will vary greatly depending on which part of the world you’re in
Yeah, and if I saw a st George’s cross hanging in Thailand it would mean something different too
Was referring to the hand sign and numbers. But yeah, the flag would probably get you mistaken for the Red Cross
I was being a little rude. But like yeah man obviously context is going to be important
You’d be surprised, I’ve been called a Nazi for saying that just maybe, the Asian with 88 in their username is not a secret white supremacist (especially considering Chinese consider 8 auspicious, more so multiples of it)
Then take it back.
This one? 👌 I see people use it all the time, especially Asians
I know, I passed primary school.
Thanks for proving my point? The whole point is so you can say shit like this
What point? I don’t know what you’re on about in regards to hand gestures and numbers. You made some pretty obvious statements.
The point is that you are either a useful idiot, or actively involved in spreading these dogwhistles
I don’t really use the 👌 gesture except from when I’m in China because they seem to recognise that one more than a thumbs up. As for 14 and 88, I was a 14 year old once but not quite 88. I don’t know what you’re getting at. I know the Chinese also use 88 as a representative of marriage… Along with 999 meaning something and I think I saw a 666 in China as well.
I’m guessing the latter, but I suppose it is possible you actually are just really dumb
You argue like an antisemite. What’s that about?
Are you accusing me of antisemitism because I’m saying that flying the Cross of St George which has been recognised as a banner of England for Centuries isn’t in fact racism?
No I’m accusing of arguing in bad faith
What about the Hindu swastica that has been used for thousands of years, is that also not racist?
That’s the thing with shit people.
You throw a million gallons of clean water into a sewer and you’ve got a sewer.
You throw 20 gallons of sewage into a swimming pool and you’ve got to drain and refill the pool.
Not necessarily. People use the internet for bad but it’s not a sewer. More good happens than bad.
Still playing ignorant?
Not a good look
You fell for a joke here, pal.
No I didn’t? It was a joke, until it was then adopted by the right as a dog whistle because it was a joke.
I think it might be you that’s not fully understanding
The entire point is to co-opt seemingly innocuous or common symbolism
You obviously did. “OK means White Power” was a practical joke established at 4chan (well, where else could it be?). Unsurprisingly, many people can’t tell the difference between troll jokes and reality these days.
But please continue spreading the joke.
edit: Editing your comment after someone has replied. Classic. I’ll end this discussion here.
I’m not sure if this is serious or not. Yes. It started as a joke. What’s your point? Its since been adopted as a dog whistle precisely so dumbasses like you will do the work of right-wingers for them
The people who can’t tell the difference are the ones who use it without intending it to be a joke. 4chan “jokes” leak into the real world now, without being jokes.
You think pretty highly of yourself eh lol.
Yes but that doesn’t matter does it. Because it’s not been used to signal patriotism it’s been used to signal to the rest of the world that there are racist arse wipe
How come this suddenly changed? People have flown the national flags for decades from their house and weren’t racist
It’s always been a sign that you’re a bit of a pillock to be honest, I don’t think it’s changed much in my lifetime.
From what I heard, if you fly it you’re a racist and if you deny you are a racist you are just lying because we know you are a racist because you are flying st George’s cross because everyone who flies st George’s cross is a racist. Bit circular reasoning.
I think you’re missing the nuance here, flying the flag alone doesn’t make you a racist, but if it’s become culturally associated with racism then it’s a data-point that can build up that picture.
This is a good question.
It changed because the statement people hung the flag for decades is entirely recent history. Anyone over 50 knows it is not the case,
It is true of the union jack. Although since Victorian times not hugely so and often seen as tacky. But the St Georges flag dropped from use before the 1980s.
The reason is pretty clear. From about the mid 1800 most major English political parties have been unionist. It is a part of the Tory party name. But all 3 major parties and most smaller parties in England have been unionist.
We have no major England separation party. Whereas the other 3 nations all have such parties. Calls for England as an independent nation. Have never had a majority or even significant following.
As such the flag of England dropped out of use in the mid 1800s. As the main parties were successfully pushing the Union Jack as the main flag for England. In an attempt to diminish the separation parties of other nations. And no vocal group in the nation of England was opposing the lose.
As such when the National Front. Then BNP etc etc started to use the St Georges flag as a call to remove all non white from the UK. Opposition was very much directed at the ideals. Not the use of a flag few felt a link to.
Even now. Few have any real link to England as a separate nation. Just no real opposition to the flag any more then a link to it. It is seen by the vaste majority. More as the harm created by multiple negative party affiliations. Then as some national symbol of the English.
Weren’t they? If I see someone flying a German or Bavarian flag I automatically assume they’re
racistsat least right leaning.A present day german flag isn’t racist. The Bavarian flag doesn’t appear to be racist either. Why do you assume they are racist?
I’ve learned to be highly skeptical of patriotism in general, because it’s a fertile breeding ground for racism and fascism.
My reasoning being that, except in very few cases, those flying the flag had no hand in them being whatever nationality they are flying the flag of. They were simply born there. Thus any pride they take in the accomplishments of that nation is completely unearned, again with very few exceptions.
This unearned pride often leads to them taking personal offence at critique of “their” nation, even if it’s warranted.
Additionally their perception of what that nation is and represents is often anchored in the past, in the best case, or in euphemised half-truths and outright fabrications, in the worst case. This results in them acting as either a conservative force, in that best case, or start slipping into fascism. Because that’s what happens when you believe your country is perfect, can do no wrong and everything would be much better if everyone were just like you.
A lot of people are patriotic and not racist. I’d say it’s most likely most people are patriotic and not racist.
We had a bunch of them paint the flags on walls, road and bins near me. Which cost the council money to clean up.
Nothing screams I love this country like putting it on bins where people put rubbish or the roads where cars will drive over it
Peak council estate behaviour
This isn’t a sudden change that’s been the case for as long as I can remember. The BNP started doing it in the 60s so it’s not exactly a recent thing
Co option.
Australian variant is the southern cross. If you see the eureka flag, firebomb the joint and walk away
It is deeply strange to fly a national flag from your private home.
I see it all of the time
And i do not.
Good chat.
Then stand up and oppose it being used as an anti immigration symbol. Because after the BNP copted it. Any org using it as a sign opposing immigration. Is very clearly an obviously attempting to use that history to scare. Not as a sign patriot ideals.
What do you propose I do? I’m very not anti-immigration. I’m not pro immigration but I’m anti-anti-immigration. I think people should be able to come here with good reason and/or if it’s mutually beneficial
I raised some pride flags next to the flags around my area. It really kills the racist message. Somebody else has also gone round attaching a “No hate” sign to the bottoms of every flagged lamppost.
That’s nice, although the Union Flag should be above the pride flag
Also that Union Flag is upside down.
It gets ripped down too quickly if I put it below! You can see the old cable ties from when I made that mistake.
I am SHOCKED that the patriots who hung the Union Flag did not respect proper flag protocol.
Maybe fix it for them ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) then they’ll know it was fixed by the pride guy
I’m so sick of the inability to speak like a human online. The way you’re being spoken to for acting like a well adjusted adult is actually embarrassing for this community.
Eh, not all are bad. What @GiveOver@feddit.uk did was pretty based
Exactly what I said. Oppose the use of the flag as a intent to scare immigrants.
While making reasoned and rational arguments for and against different immigration policies.
Of course the above is as unbiased as it can be.
But as someone with more left of centre ideals.
It’s not complex. As a nation we have always depended on immigration. Angle Celts and Jutes immigrated to this nation before the flooding of dogger bank some 12k years ago. Much as in the rest of the world. Excluding the plains of Kenya. No human is entirely native to any one nation. Mixing of cultures and people has always advantages the human race.
But the right wing is very much being intentional in their use of other to distract the people. It is a key goal of fasism.
The rights use of the flag as an element of fear. Is both intentional and a long known core element of fascist ideology.( Ultra nationalism and the selectionof a enemy class. ). intended to control opposition to the elite.
Absolutely nothing the right claim as an issue to the UK is the fault or responsibility of immigration.
While all the issues that drive people to accept such claims. Are the result of intentional reductions in rights and equality lead by 50 plus years of right of centre governments.
As bad as godwins law can be. Their is a reason so many of the rights actions match 1930 Germany.
That’s an Americanism. Immigration from one country to another is generally accepted, eg, between european countries. The issues are people “fleeing war” from Afghanistan and where do they settle. Pakistan? No. Turkiye? No. They have to make it to the UK for some strange reason.
I’m actually pro letting Afghans in who helped our nation and may face persecution under the taliban. The people coming in on small boats aren’t honest people. The honest people migrate legally as they respect our laws.
You are inventing divisions where non existent.
For starters there is absolutely no law or history where war refugees are required to settle in the first safe nation. Much the opposite the Geneva convention makes it illegal to use access or distance to limit the movement of refugees. This is specifically their as forcing nations nearest a war zone to accept refugees would increase the odds of the war spreading into their borders.
As for the difference between EU and refugees. Given the whole Brexit history that is an utterly dumb complaint. It has absolutely no marit in this debate as the flag was specifically used to argue against all type of immigration in recent times.
The law should be changed. It didn’t account for a people smuggling industry. Why would you want a war to spread to the UK?
The law should be changed because you have fallen for right wing bull crap.
The law was created in the 1950s with the UK as a major proponent of that law. Yet we have had 0 wars on UK soil since then.
Where as nations bordering wars have had multiple wars expand into their territory as refugees run to escape. Seriously, you seem totally unable to base any of your arguments on facts or logic. But just emotional rubbish pushed by right wing lies and folks fighting for fascism.
It depends on the context doesn’t it. Lots of people will fly the England flag or wear an England shirt during a football tournament, and all they mean by that is “I support the England team” without a further political meaning. But the meaning of the current flag-flying from lamp posts seems to essentially be “we don’t want immigrants in the UK” which can make the flags intimidating (which is probably the exact intention).
Here’s another example of context changing meaning. Churchill used to give a two-fingered salute (see picture below), and his intended meaning of that salute was that it was a “V” for “victory” in WW2. But of course these days, that same outwards two-fingered salute means “fuck off”. Context changes the meaning.
The outward facing V of two-fingers meaning offence predates Churchill by a few centuries.
Fair enough, but according to a couple of sites that Wikipedia refers to, Churchill originally didn’t know that the outward facing gesture was rude until he was told about it. If true then I guess his gesture was intended to mean “here is a V for victory” instead of “fuck off you lot” or “fuck the Germans”.
Is it about immigrants in general though or the people trying to game the system by pretending to be refugees, entering via the english channel.
Churchill’s “V for Victory” was flipping the germans off.
I’ve been to England a few times and saw people and buildings flying St George’s cross before this crisis, also had seen it used online in emoji form in bios, etc.
Very few people are gaming the system, but the ones that are won’t be caught because asylum seekers aren’t having their claims processed.
If this was your genuinely held concern you should be pushing for the government to allocate the resources to properly vet asylum claims and get all of these people processed appropriately.
I suspect you wouldn’t like that solution though because in the end it will likely remove less than a percent or two of asylum seekers
Gov.UK says it is 50%, or 55,700 people.
55,700 people with no regard for the law or nation entering during 2025 alone is deeply troubling.
Neither of the things you just said prevent someone from seeing asylum. It’s the UK government that has no regard for the law, they have a duty to process these claims as signatories of the UN convention on the rights of refugees.
Hey, you’re that same bozo who was trying to tell me he didn’t know 14 88 was a dog whistle earlier, I wonder if your opinions on this are fact based and well researched…
The UK government can not like these people as much as it wants, it doesn’t make their asylum claims illegal
I think you’ve banged the nail on the head - that’s why people are annoyed. It SHOULD prevent them from gaining asylum. The law is outdated and it’s funding a people smuggling industry. Every claim where the seeker came through from a safe country such as France should be rejected immediately. They’re not refugees. The asylum law is for refugees. Australia was able to solve it and we almost had it with the (albeit overpriced) Rwanda policy.
Before I get assumed to be a racist, I actually think the UK law to immigrate legally is too strict. The thresholds are too high and requiring one for a british citizen with non british spouse or children is borderline racism.
British citizens don’t require anything to immigrate whether they have a spouse or child or where the spouse, child, lack of spouse or lack of child are from.
Oh my god… Wait… You’re PRO rawanda refugee policy? Oh please do tell me your thoughts on the benefits of that program
Wether it shouldn’t or shouldn’t is immaterial to this conversation. To follow both UK and international law all these asylum claims need to be processed.
If showing up on a boat disqualified you, the Tories would be chomping at the bit to process them and turf them.
The things your saying all sound lovely and in a perfect world of it was like that we might agree that it was better.
There’s no point carrying on this conversation if you’re going to continue to claim that people arriving on small boats and other irregular means are illegal
Yes, but the thing is, people just don’t fly it here for no reason.
Unlike the USA, where it was so ridiculous that I played a game with myself called “Turn around and there’ll always be a flag somewhere in front of me” (it really is that insane, their level of nationalism/exceptionalism disguised as patriotism is wild),
…here the flag may be flown for patriotic events (e.g. World Cup), or flown by official institutions, but 99.99% of regular people would never consider flying it for any other reason, and it’s very rarely seen overall. This is normal.
National flags are generally meant to indicate nationality outside of one’s own borders to others around you (e.g. an embassy in a foreign land, or ships at sea). They’re not at all useful on home soil, so why bother flying one?
So, yes, it’s our flag (though not the version people fly that says ENGLAND in big letters in the middle - that’s just stupid). But the people that fly it are almost always bigots and weirdos that you want to stay away from, especially these days.
This is blinkered. National flags are a symbol of the nation so they are useful for that purpose. Why are they flown at sporting events? Because people want to display their support. Displaying your support, or pride, at other times, doesn’t automatically mean you have some other agenda going on.
I think you should be able to see the contradiction here with how the union jack and the scottish and welsh flags are seen. I bet you don’t see them in the same way, because they’re not used in the same way - so this has nothing to do with “they’re not useful, so when they are used, it’s for bad reasons”; it has everything to do with symbols as language, and the meaning they have for us. And those meanings are inherently ambiguous.
There’s a lot of people confidently declaring what other people think on the basis of one thing that they do. I am always suspicious of that, and think everyone should be, because it’s really easy to fall into thinking that, since I don’t feel the need to fly a flag, everyone who does so must be fundamentally different. They must subscribe to this belief that would cause flag-flying - and every person you see flying the flag at a far-right rally confirms your bias. Every person involved in flag-flying who is interviewed and says they aren’t racist is lying, because their reasoning sounds hollow to you because it doesn’t motivate you to follow suit and fly a flag yourself.
But besides that, why shouldn’t a flag serve as a unifying symbol, instead of a divisive one? Why shouldn’t the English flag be one that immigrants feel proud to fly alongside the flags of their own backgrounds? The left always seems to give up every symbol as soon as the (far) right start using it, which hands over the power in every single symbol to them without a fight.
I see our national flag 🇬🇧 all of the time. There are a few around the house, some on apparel, some in the form of actual flags such as behind the photograph of the King and the Queen. In some places the council or volunteers put them on the lampposts every summer and people often fly them from their houses. We also have a flag box filled with flags for special occasions. It’s also incorporated in our instance logo and the logos of several communities, including this one.
I remember during the royal wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, people put up UK flags and USA flags on lampposts in an alternating fashion.
Interesting you used the union flag there and not the st george one we’re talking about
Be weird to see it outside of England
Unfortunately I’ve seen this happen before, in Spain.
The national flag of Spain, when used by an individual, rarely ever represents “I love Spain and all that it entails” but rather “I have right-wing views, I only accept the catholic religion, gays aren’t natural, and immigrants should go back to their own countries”.
I don’t know if it can be taken back to just be the national flag, but if it can, Spain hasn’t managed to achieve it in the 20 years since it devolved into a narrow political symbol.
Same exact deal in America.
The solution is to have the councils put it everywhere.
The swastika was once a religious symbol. What’s your point?
It is still a religious symbol. I was in China a while ago and saw quite a few swastikas in places. Generally they aren’t black, 45° and on a white circle with a red field and grafitti’d on a wall. That’s how you know when someone is a nazi. Someone flying their national flag from their house is quite normal behaviour. I’ve done it before.
So surely by your own admission you can see how a peaceful symbol can be taken over by bad people…?
Yes. But the solution isn’t to surrender it.
It still is, depending on the context.
That’s the thing with symbols.
In some neighborhoods, you can’t wear anything red [or blue] because those are the colors of the local gangs.
Back in the day, a lot of businesses had names like “Kooper’s Kustom Kreations” to let folks know who ran the place.
St George’s cross has always been generally seen as a flag of St George. Georgia uses a similar one and there have been other depictions of the Agnus Dei where it’s used as a “Victory” flag. If Kooper’s Kustom Kreations predated the KKK, it would also make sense. I doubt in this context that it did.
In England if there isn’t a national sporting event on and there is a st George’s crosshanging in your window there is a much better chance it means your primary hobby is skulling pints and harassing brown people at the pub with your mates than it meaning you’re just a huge fan of English heritage.
The UK has a flag that encompasses all the nations of the UK and hasn’t been co-opted as a hate symbol, the union flag. If you were wanting to show national pride just for the sake of it, it’s likely you’d fly that.
Yes. None of these are hard and fast rules, no, not everyone flying a st George’s cross is a nazi.
But maybe take it from the multiple people in this thread who live in England telling you what we all know this symbol to mean in certain contexts instead of trying to play some academic game
Maybe the English should all fly it then and take it back. Just like the other three countries in the UK where I hear flying your flag is normal.
Maybe so? What’s your point though.
We shouldn’t assume someone is racist for flying St George’s cross or criticise people for flying the flag itself. Instead we should criticise racism at the core instead of dancing around low hanging grapes. Such as the US puppet nigel farage
You can do whatever the hell you want. You’re just describing a world it would be nice to be in. That isn’t our world and you’re offering nothing about how to get there. But you’re VERY sure we should only be mean to racists once we get it signed in triplicate by the asshole police that they are indeed officially assholes
I posted the comment before reading all the way through the thread.
You’re deliberately misunderstanding the situation.
Be better than that.
Yes.